haver Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 is this seq. forcing? 1D - pass - 1H - pass - 1Sp - pass - ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 is this seq. forcing? 1D - pass - 1H - pass - 1Sp - pass - ?? The answer is YES and NO, depending upon your agreement. For example, with balanced 19 and a four card major, you may agree to play you will rebid 1S rather and 2NT. This agreement greatly affects the potential meaning of both 1S and 2NT. Thus, if you jump to 2NT with this agreement you deny 4Spades. With some partners, we have specifically agreed this auction is forcing one round. Misho and I discussed this very sequence last night before we played in a tournment together. On the other hand, if you have not discussed this auction, I would say in general, it is not forcing, but it is very seldom passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bglover Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 I play that a jump to 2s is forcing usually and so this can be passed. A better treatment (actually the one I prefer) is that opener can jump to 2NT with this hand... If responder uses some form of checkback I now bid 3s... showing my 4 card suit this time around. If partner bids 3n I correct to 4h. Without prior discussion I suggest you play that 1s is not forcing as opener COULD HAVE jumped and thus has limited his hand to less than 18. Responder, with 6 points and 3 spds should be able to bail out early and hope its the best spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 i guess a p'ship can play any way they want, but i've never played this sequence as forcing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Interesting. The way I learnt (years ago), in both Acol and "Standard American" is: If responder makes a non-limited bid (a limited bid would be 1NT or a simple raise of opener), then a new suit by opener is UNCONDITIONALLY forcing. The principle being that responder, by bidding a new suit, promises a rebid (except if opener makes a limited bid that allows responder to place the contract). Perhaps this is dated - the requirements for jump-shifting seem to have declined. Having said that, clearly what the other posters have said (i.e. whatever your partnership agrees to play is up to you) is right on. However, the "old" way of playing this is based on a degree of logic. There can be nice hands that are worth a jump-shift in terms of strength, but for which the bid would distort the hand (i.e. there is no known fit yet and the hand isn't truly two-suited). There is logic behind playing this forcing or non-forcing depending on whether opener MUST rebid 2NT with a balanced hand of the appropriate range, bypassing one or both majors to do so (in which case presumably the partnership plays Checkback Stayman). However, what about the unbalanced hands that are not really two-suited (e.g. 6 cards in minor, 4 card major)? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Oh please, not again! Lol100% forcing in any of my partnerships. Not forcing in many, (most?) other partnerships. There are too many reasons to discuss why tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 In my 3 most common partnerships: 33% of the time forcing. In that 1 partnership (the best one) I jump to 2S with 15+HCP, so 1S has an upper limit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 One reason why we play it as forcing is that it makes constructive bidding far easier. After 1C 1H, we play 2S as a mini splinter, also to play 1C 1H 1S as forcing means you are a level lower for the development of constructve auctions. There has been a huge discussion on rgb about this recently, which got quite heated at times. People obviously feel strongly one way or the other. Basically you can play any way you want to, as long as your pd knows what you are doing. John's comment is interesting as in fact I would say the reverse is true - more and more pairs today play it as forcing, wheras in the past it wasn't. John argues the opposite. I guess it depends where you play and learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Funny i had never heard of this auction as forcing until this thread was started. And to my knowledge have never encountered a pair that played it forcing. I guess as someone else mentioned it depends upon where you play bridge. It's just a matter of partnership understanding. My question is why would i want 1s to be forcing? And if it is forcing does that mean that a jump too 2s shows 5? Does a bid of 1s guarantee 4+cards in first suit bid? How does responder with marginal values get that message across to opener. And what other implications are there. If someone here plays it as forcing id be interested in hearing them explain the above. I mite even try it myself if i can determine value of treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 What we play is that a balanced hand rebids 1N after its opening eg 1C 1H 1N can certainly have 4S. So 1C 1H 1S guarantees 5C and 4S or a a 4441 with a stiff red suit. The reason why we - and most players here - play 1S as forcing is that it allows constructive hand dev at a lower level. Many also play mini spl so1C 1H 2S shows 12-15 with 1435 or similar. You get to bid some nice light games when resp can diagnose a good fit. With a limited hand responder makes the bid that best describes his hand pattern, eg 1C 1H 1S 1N/2C/2H. The 2C bid could easily be 3, sometimes even 2, because we KNOW that opener has 5, (or 4 in a 4441). This of course assumes that you don't play the silly stuff that some play - opening a 4333 with 1C and rebidding 1S I doubt if any of the top tournament players here, (Australia), play it as nf by an unpassed hand; I certainly have never come across any who do. Some lols do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bglover Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Easy, did I not see you and your partner play a 3-3 fit on this auction the other day? Just asking.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Easy, did I not see you and your partner play a 3-3 fit on this auction the other day? Just asking.... no steve not on an auction like this but...... we have played a 33 fit in the following situation 1d 1H2H all pass when opener holds xx axx ajxx kxxx and i hold xxx xxx Kx kxxxx but that doesnt happen very often Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Just a question - why on earth would anyone respond 1H on this hand?Much rather bid 1N. What do you do if pd bids 4H on a strong hand and Axxx of H? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 IN a word NO :P UNLESS alerted to OPPS as such because is a special arrangement in whatever system you and P are using :D is this seq. forcing? 1D - pass - 1H - pass - 1Sp - pass - ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 SO you ALERT it as forcing I hope? Oh please, not again! Lol100% forcing in any of my partnerships. Not forcing in many, (most?) other partnerships. There are too many reasons to discuss why tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 SO you ALERT it as forcing I hope? Oh please, not again! Lol100% forcing in any of my partnerships. Not forcing in many, (most?) other partnerships. There are too many reasons to discuss why tonight. You are joking, aren't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartaj1 Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Bridge is all about bidding and making games and slams; and not for looking for excuses at getting out in a 1 spade contract. Whether 1S is forcing or not, responder's simple preference ,rebid or 1NT does not show any extras.The only gain of 1S NF is when playing 1 spade as it doesnt seem to offer any constructive bidding advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Bridge is all about bidding and making games and slams; and not for looking for excuses at getting out in a 1 spade contract. Whether 1S is forcing or not, responder's simple preference ,rebid or 1NT does not show any extras.The only gain of 1S NF is when playing 1 spade as it doesnt seem to offer any constructive bidding advantages. two quibbles 1) IMPs is all about making games and slams, MPs is all about beating par. 2) There is a slight constructive advantage in mking 1S NF. When partner doesn't pass your 1S bid, you know he has more than a dead minimum responding hand. This will be of some help on a small number of hands. For what it is worth, I would only pass the 1S bid on a hand like Qxx Jxxx x Qxxxx Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartaj1 Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 I would pass too.Because opposite a pard who hasnt opened a GF, there is hardly any hand with which we can make game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 SO you ALERT it as forcing I hope? Uh??? Alert it as being forcing. Hardly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 SO you ALERT it as forcing I hope? Uh??? Alert it as being forcing. Hardly! i think you should.. a new suit by responder is forcing and need not be alerted.. however, if a p'ship played that a new suit by responder is *not* forcing, i think it should be alerted in this case, opener's new suit at the one level, if the p'ship play it as forcing, should be alerted as such... while there may be no penalty imposed for no alert, full disclosure would seem to demand one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Hi, In the partnerships where I play 1S as forcing, I alert it. I suspect because I think the normal way is for it to be non-forcing. But maybe "forcing" is too strong, because while I mean it as forcing, there are hands like the one a few post above where I will pass the "forcing" 1S. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 in this case, opener's new suit at the one level, if the p'ship play it as forcing, should be alerted as such Seriously, I would actually argue the converse - if a new suit is not forcing, then alert it. In ftf I personally know of no partnership that plays it as nf. In the US it is obviously different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhugi Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 In my region, if a new suit is non-forcing, we alert it. e.g. 1s-2c-2h (alert: non-forcing) 1c-1h-1s is forcing, even with p - 1c - 1h - 1s, 1s is still forcing, 12-21+, partner have to find a rebid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 Hi all! Normal natural meaning of 1SP rebid is NF. Need to be alerted as RF, if your OPP can understand it as NF. If in your club/region/country all play it same, no need to alert ofcourse. Is better to be or not to be 8) - that is the question :(My style is positive and hopeful - to be, to bid, to guess...Shortly - better to be forcing to choose contract or for slam. Worse for score or down after trap pass, but who care ;D. Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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