Competitive bidding after takeout X

[awm]

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=s9876h64dkj9ckq86]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

RHO starts the bidding with a pass, you pass, and LHO opens 1♥ in third seat. Partner doubles for takeout and RHO bids 4♥. You're favorable at IMPs. What's your call? If you double, what do you expect partner to do with an "ordinary" takeout shape? In case it matters:

 

(1) You open fairly light, including a 10-12 notrump, so this is fairly maximum passed hand.

(2) Partner tends to double fairly aggressively with shape, but he's not crazy.

[joshs]

Well I x, and I think this is a very typical shape for a responsive x at this level.

 

I expect partner to usually pass with a doubleton (but can bid 4S with 4 cards any time he thinks he can make it, and the vul makes it tempting to bid on), usually bid 4S with 4S and a singleton heart (but can pass if he is sure we are setting this, and believes that its better to take the money, and will basically only bid 5m on very offensive hands (3064 shape for instance) or 4N on 3154 hands that still have mild slam interest.

[Guest Jlall]

I would X. I would expect partner to almost always pass, unless he had a heart void. I cannot see partner pulling with 4144 or 41(35) shapes. Those are ordinary shapes and just because he is 4144 with his 12 count and we have a max passed hand doesn't mean we should be bidding. I feel strongly that it is percentage for partner to pass with normal shapes.

 

Anyways, I still wouldn't bid 4S here even though it could work. My spades are terrible, hand is pretty bad, etc.

[joshs]

Just for the record, I think partner has 4S and 1H about 55-60% of the time on this auction (simulation needed?), and there are a number of other stronger hands that he might also bid with, so I expect him to pull close to 65% of the time. Now playing my style, his minimum x will be about a 13 count with a stiff opposite a passed hand, so our worst case for a pull is 22 high, a 4-4 fit and 18 total tricks (assuming the law is right at this level) divided equally on average. 4S over 4H is definitely the money bid (even though you expect to beat 4H about 2/3 of the time)....If he has a 3154 13 count, 4H-x will be touch and go. Hmm, maybe he should always bid at equal vul with a stiff H at imps if he thinks he can declare the hand undoubled. Well these decisions are pretty close. I need a simulation!

[mikeh]

I would double, card-showing. The ♠ suit is wrong for a 4-level adventure. we may very well be going -790.

 

I would make this call against anyone, but I admit that against good players, I will be more than usually anxious, since I'd not expect partner to pull unless he has an unusual hand. Against poorer players, I have more confidence: it amazes me how often some players think that possession of 5 card support justifies a 4 level preempt: Jx KJxxx xxx xxx as an example.

[joshs]

I would X. I would expect partner to almost always pass, unless he had a heart void. I cannot see partner pulling with 4144 or 41(35) shapes. Those are ordinary shapes and just because he is 4144 with his 12 count and we have a max passed hand doesn't mean we should be bidding. I feel strongly that it is percentage for partner to pass with normal shapes.

 

Anyways, I still wouldn't bid 4S here even though it could work. My spades are terrible, hand is pretty bad, etc.

Well this is a style thing in how takeouty are high level x's. I pass on this auction with xxx KQx Axxx xxx and prey partner has enough to x's again. I just like to go plus....

[Guest Jlall]

Well this is a style thing in how takeouty are high level x's. I pass on this auction with xxx KQx Axxx xxx and prey partner has enough to x's again. I just like to go plus....

I would also pass. You and I both agree on what type of hands should be Xing 4H, we just seem to be completely opposite on what hands should pull.

[ArcLight]

1. With Responsive Doubles, wouldn't a DBL show the minors in this auction?

 

2. How high do you play Responsive Doubles? [up thru 4 diamonds?] How would pard interpret DBL? Penalty? 3 suit takeout?

[awm]

For me, double here is mostly penalty oriented. I should note that I define "penalty" differently than most people (more on that in a second). I'd expect doubler to normally sit for it, except when holding a strong one-suited hand (power double).

 

I admit that I have trouble understanding all the names most people give to doubles. I tend to place doubles in five categories, based mostly on what partner's expected to do:

 

Penalty: Partner should pass with a "normal" hand for the bidding so far, and passes a substantial majority of hands.

 

Cooperative: Partner should pass with a "flat" hand type and bid with shape. Usually this means passing and bidding are about equally likely.

 

Takeout: Partner should bid with most hands, although passing is certainly possible with a hand that is substantially defense-oriented (usually trump tricks).

 

Cards: The double simply shows points, with no real indication of what partner should do. These are generally low-level doubles (often in a precision-type system), or doubles of an artificial bid.

 

Artificial: This handles doubles that mean something specific, not just "general values" and nothing about the suit the opponents bid. Typical are doubles which are "transfers" to some specific suit, or show some degree of support for partner's suit.

 

I'm often confused by the vast set of names people apply to doubles. My impression was that responsive doubles were basically supposed to be takeout, showing something like two places to play, but a lot of people call doubles "responsive" that they actually expect partner to pass with the vast majority of hands. Isn't a double that you expect partner to almost always pass a "penalty" double even if it doesn't show a gigantic trump stack? Anyways, for me, double of 4♥ in this auction is penalty oriented. I would double with the hand Josh gave as an example. Once partner has shown support for the three unbids, I usually have a handle on whether I want to compete at the four level and in which suit. Of course, it's also not unreasonable to me that one might double with hands like the one in this thread; basically double is just saying "I don't think they're making, and if you have what your takeout double normally promises I think our best score will be to defend."

 

Of course, I put the two possible meanings of double into the poll because I am interested in the choices people would make when they allocate a different meaning to double than I do.

[joshs]

I would X. I would expect partner to almost always pass, unless he had a heart void. I cannot see partner pulling with 4144 or 41(35) shapes. Those are ordinary shapes and just because he is 4144 with his 12 count and we have a max passed hand doesn't mean we should be bidding. I feel strongly that it is percentage for partner to pass with normal shapes.

 

Anyways, I still wouldn't bid 4S here even though it could work. My spades are terrible, hand is pretty bad, etc.

I would pass opposite with a 4144 12-14 count without thinking, since I don't have enough to make, and don't have offensive shape. A 4153 12-14 count is closer....

[awm]

[hv=d=e&v=e&n=satxxhxxdatxxcaxx&w=sxhakxxdqxxxxcjtx&e=skqjxhqjxxxdxcxxx&s=s9876h64dkj9ckq84]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

This was the full hand. 4♥ will go two down on reasonable defense; 4♠ will go two down on best play.

 

At our teammates table the auction started with two passes and a 1♦ opening. In the subsequent bidding, EW competed to 3♥ and played there undoubled, for -100 to our side.

 

At our table, the auction was as given and partner tried 4♠. This was doubled, and not a success. Passing it out would be enough for a win in the match; doubling would give us a sizeable win.