More proof masterpoints are silly

[awm]

Last week I played in the Los Angeles regional tournament. Since I work during the day, I was only able to play in a small number of sessions during the week. The only serious event run during the evenings was a two-day swiss teams on wednesday and thursday.

 

This team event was fairly small (only 12 teams) but attracted a pretty strong field. Four of the six matches we played were against pretty strong teams, including many of the best players in our district. Admittedly there weren't a lot of national champions in the field (contrary to what one might think, Los Angeles is not one of the strongest districts and our tournaments don't really draw very well), but we saw a lot of diamond and platinum life masters (5000-10000 masterpoint range). My team scored 102 out of 120 victory points in this swiss, for first overall and an award of 7.7 ACBL points.

 

On Sunday, I played another two session swiss (with a different team). The field actually included some better players than the evening swiss (Jill Meyers, for example, had a team) but on average I think the teams in the field were not as good. We were not doing particularly well, so while we played a couple good teams in the early rounds, most of the later teams we saw were nothing special. We finished with only 66 out of 140 victory points (below average), but this was second in strat X (under 3000 masterpoints). We were awarded: 7.7 ACBL points.

 

Anyways, I'm sure most of us know masterpoints are rather silly and not a good measure of skill, but I thought this was sort of amusing (same number of points for a convincing win in one event and for a below-average finish in a possibly-weaker event).

[pbleighton]

Masterpoints are a marketing tool.

 

Peter

 

P.S. Congratulations - but not on the masterpoints :D

[luis]

In my wonderful third-world country we are trying to emulate the ACBL procedures. Try to imagine! a third-world version of the ACBL!. We can even make a comedy movie about this.

 

We have mutant tournaments where the rules change in the middle of the tournament.

We have "national" tournaments that are not national but "called" national for marketing reasons.

We have club tournaments that give you more points that a 2nd place in the national teams event or a qualification for the BB.

What else?

Senior tournaments where you win "open" points... Mixed tournaments with open points, Ladies tournaments with "ladies-only" points. Points of different colors, red, white, gold, silver, somebody claims to have a green point but I think it's just a rumor.

 

Well it turns out that with the system we have now in place I predict all our players will be "masters" by 2008, you just have to play all the tournaments and you will be there, there is no escape.

So I have proposed to make everyone a master by default so only the people interested in bridge and not in a degree will play, but somehow they have refused my proposal.

 

Just love it :-)

 

Luis

[han]

Love your post Luis, it would be funny if not so sad. :rolleyes:

[pclayton]

Adam, if you really cared about MPs, you'd have taken a few days off work and played the Bracket II KO's.

 

For about 20% of the mental energy it took to win the Swiss, you could have won 18 in the KO's.

 

One of these days the ACBL will figure that making goals more DIFFICULT to obtain will attract players instead of VV.

 

LA is such a lousy place to hold a regional. There are no restaurants (the hotel charges $14 for a really average cheeseburger). Other options are Denny's and Carl's Jr. I think the district would do itself a favor by holding it in Pasadena, the Valley or even a place like Valencia.

 

By the way, I've spoken to Jim Kirkham who has suggested D22 and D23 be merged, if to only be an example to other districts to do the same.

 

As far as I know, district boundaries haven't changed since God knows when.

[inquiry]

Forget carl's Jr... in LA (or at least hollywood) go to in-and-out burger... I was there in October and that place was pretty darn good.

[hrothgar]

Why would ANYONE eat a burger in LA?

Find a taqueria with a decent sized line...

 

make sure you know a few words of spanish like "cabra"

[Al_U_Card]

Love your post Luis, it would be funny if not so sad. :rolleyes:

Certainly we all remember in Kindergarten that for showing up every day you got a gold star at the end of the month? The bridge version just requires the expenditure of more time and money. That's the sad part. Here's the funny....

 

Instead of masterpoints, when you play against someone, you get an instant recognition that in a given event you both played in, you did better than they did. You are then allowed one "free shot". If you do not take it, (making the comment that is) then they owe you a drink (free shot) at the bar. Would make the game much more sociable......

[Sigi_BC84]

In Germany you need a certain amount of Masterpoints in order to get a TD certificate (in addition to taking an examination of course). This is the only reason some of us are trying to collect their MPs as quickly as possible.

 

Lately it has been decided that you can get MPs for two-table team tournaments as well, which is quite nice because we're having one each week in the club (there's not much else happening in that club, it's more a stub of a club) and the other team is weaker, so we're getting MPs basically for nothing.

 

How's the situation in your country? Do TDs need a certain amount of Masterpoints in order to qualify?

 

--Sigi

[luis]

In Germany you need a certain amount of Masterpoints in order to get a TD certificate (in addition to taking an examination of course). This is the only reason some of us are trying to collect their MPs as quickly as possible.

 

Lately it has been decided that you can get MPs for two-table team tournaments as well, which is quite nice because we're having one each week in the club (there's not much else happening in that club, it's more a stub of a club) and the other team is weaker, so we're getting MPs basically for nothing.

 

How's the situation in your country? Do TDs need a certain amount of Masterpoints in order to qualify?

 

--Sigi

In my third-world ACBL clone TDs are named TD by their abilities to run tournaments without many casualties. No Master points required, no exam, no nothing.

[Gerben42]

How's the situation in your country? Do TDs need a certain amount of Masterpoints in order to qualify?

 

In the Netherlands you need to play in a certain league or higher (level 2nd Bundesliga) or take a test in which you show you can play this game. No MP nonsense.

 

I've been in Germany for 3 years now, don't have enough MP to make a Silver certificate yet, of course, although I cannot imagine it would be "too hard" for me.

[han]

Gerben, as much as I love some Germans, it is painful to see you refer to the Dutch league as Bundesliga. Have you been away for so long? :rolleyes:

[Gerben42]

That was for Sigi so he can imagine what level is needed for not taking the Spelkennistest. 2e Divisie ~ 2. Bundesliga.

[han]

I know I know, just kidding.

[Elianna]

Forget carl's Jr... in LA (or at least hollywood) go to in-and-out burger... I was there in October and that place was pretty darn good.

Unfortunately, there was no In 'n Out around. This tournament site was so bad. They can't really have them elsewhere because of the venue cost, so i'm told.

 

I hate the start times/scheduling even more. At least Buena Park had events that started at 3pm, so I could make those. I can't take time off during the day (and many of us that aren't college professors can't, either) until the afternoon. I guess I could have played in the evening Swiss, but it wasn't too appealing. As long as we're (ok, I'm) discussing scheduling, these play-through swiss are awful. Can't tounaments just give people an extra thirty minutes for lunch, so we have enough time to get our own food instead of being forced to buy a lunch that I can't even really eat? At least the LA regional got this part right.

 

How's the situation in your country? Do TDs need a certain amount of Masterpoints in order to qualify?

No (I'm in ACBL). They just need to pass a written, untimed exam, which is open note/open book/open computer to be a club director. I have been told that club directors can direct at sectionals (small, local tournaments) but I don't know if that's actually true. I know that there's a certification level for regional directors and national directors, but not only do I have no idea what that involves, I haven't actually figured out where to look. It seems to be some kind of secret.

[Badmonster]

The best thing about MasterPoints is the fun of explaining what you've won to non-bridge players.

 

I think I can get more people to try bridge with a well crafted explanation. The only question is how many mp's do you need to get the car?

[Sigi_BC84]

How's the situation in your country? Do TDs need a certain amount of Masterpoints in order to qualify?

 

In the Netherlands you need to play in a certain league or higher (level 2nd Bundesliga) or take a test in which you show you can play this game. No MP nonsense.

 

I've been in Germany for 3 years now, don't have enough MP to make a Silver certificate yet, of course, although I cannot imagine it would be "too hard" for me.

I think in Germany the situation is similar. One of my friends who is waiting for his certificate because he is still lacking some MPs has told me that you are required to hold at least 50 MPs or need proof of a "comparable playing strength".

 

Now, that they are relating the number of MPs to playing strength in this context is completely and utterly ridiculous but I think if you are playing in 2nd Bundesliga you certainly will receive your Bronze-Zertifikat (he's only in Regionalliga, so that might be the reason why he has to wait). You need to take the exam in any case, however.

 

Edit: The situation is not similar of course, but you get the point. The Dutch system is a lot more sensible.

 

--Sigi

[pigpenz]

Last week I played in the Los Angeles regional tournament. Since I work during the day, I was only able to play in a small number of sessions during the week. The only serious event run during the evenings was a two-day swiss teams on wednesday and thursday.

 

This team event was fairly small (only 12 teams) but attracted a pretty strong field. Four of the six matches we played were against pretty strong teams, including many of the best players in our district. Admittedly there weren't a lot of national champions in the field (contrary to what one might think, Los Angeles is not one of the strongest districts and our tournaments don't really draw very well), but we saw a lot of diamond and platinum life masters (5000-10000 masterpoint range). My team scored 102 out of 120 victory points in this swiss, for first overall and an award of 7.7 ACBL points.

 

On Sunday, I played another two session swiss (with a different team). The field actually included some better players than the evening swiss (Jill Meyers, for example, had a team) but on average I think the teams in the field were not as good. We were not doing particularly well, so while we played a couple good teams in the early rounds, most of the later teams we saw were nothing special. We finished with only 66 out of 140 victory points (below average), but this was second in strat X (under 3000 masterpoints). We were awarded: 7.7 ACBL points.

 

Anyways, I'm sure most of us know masterpoints are rather silly and not a good measure of skill, but I thought this was sort of amusing (same number of points for a convincing win in one event and for a below-average finish in a possibly-weaker event).

Adam wait until you do something like i have done....When I quit playing acbl tourney in 1990 at the ripe old age of 38 i had 2500 masterpoints, now i have still not played in any regionals since then but everyone has over 2500 masterpoints. B) So people who werent very good back then and still maybe arent top level quality players have well over 2500 points.

 

Now look at the ACBL games here on BBO....they randomly set up the sections...so sometimes you can win your section here with a 49% game or come in 5th in your section with a 67% game. There are people here on BBO who play every ACBL game every day and run up like 40+ masterpoints a month.....ouch.....so they can win like 500 masterpoints a year playing in BBO ACBL games....you sure cant do that at the local club.

[pclayton]

Why would ANYONE eat a burger in LA?

Find a taqueria with a decent sized line...

 

make sure you know a few words of spanish like "cabra"

Nothing like that around the Airport Richard B)

 

El Chollo is about 20 mins east (with no traffic) and my all time favorite Manny's El Tepeyac is in E.LA.

[pigpenz]

The best thing about MasterPoints is the fun of explaining what you've won to non-bridge players.

 

I think I can get more people to try bridge with a well crafted explanation. The only question is how many mp's do you need to get the car?

yes its intersting when they say all you get is points??? no money????

I remembe when I started playing in the seventies at least you used to ge script for winning, boy thats something I havent seen for along time, Script! :)

[Al_U_Card]

Indeed scrip was a marketing gimmick that probably cost them more than it was worth. Clubs also try to give free plays to 1st place. Others to the "magic" percent. Others to last place. Ideally, free coffee and a pleasant playing environment are the best draws (This is why online bridge from home (or work) is so popular and a real threat to the f2f market.).

 

Masterpoints? Unless the coffee wasn't free but you could turn in masterpoints for one, then they would have a real value! :P

[pigpenz]

Indeed scrip was a marketing gimmick that probably cost them more than it was worth. Clubs also try to give free plays to 1st place. Others to the "magic" percent. Others to last place. Ideally, free coffee and a pleasant playing environment are the best draws (This is why online bridge from home (or work) is so popular and a real threat to the f2f market.).

 

Masterpoints? Unless the coffee wasn't free but you could turn in masterpoints for one, then they would have a real value! ;)

have you ever wondered how much money per masterpoint you have spent in your life?

hey now maybe thatst the best rating system of all ;)

 

I have a rating of $6.23 per masterpoint

 

wonder what would be average ;)

[Al_U_Card]

Indeed scrip was a marketing gimmick that probably cost them more than it was worth.  Clubs also try to give free plays to 1st place.  Others to the "magic" percent.  Others to last place.  Ideally, free coffee and a pleasant playing environment are the best draws (This is why online bridge from home (or work) is so popular and a real threat to the f2f market.).

 

Masterpoints?  Unless the coffee wasn't free but you could turn in masterpoints for one, then they would have a real value! ;)

have you ever wondered how much money per masterpoint you have spent in your life?

hey now maybe thatst the best rating system of all ;)

 

I have a rating of $6.23 per masterpoint

 

wonder what would be average :)

Interesting. On my way to Life-Master, I did keep track and it was about $10.00 (Canadian) per point. I was stuck missing 1.79 Gold points for 3 yrs (only played in one regional per year) so that upped the average cost. (It was around $6 when I went past 300 total points and I had almost 500 when I got the final gold.) Then they started knock-outs and 25 gold can be had by showing up...

[awm]

Well, measuring dollars per masterpoint is funny. Playing in the ACBL games on BBO with a good partner, I average about .50 masterpoints per go. So that's only $2 a point!

 

On the other hand, I also finished 44th in the LM pairs at summer nationals last year. This cost about $108 in entry fees over three days (six sessions at national rated entries). Our finish was worth 21.51 platinum, or about $5 a point!

 

Even my best finish at nationals, 3rd in the national Wernher pairs, got me only 73.13 points for $72 in entry fees (so about $1 a point). I'm sure that my dollars per point at nationals overall are substantially worse than my dollars per point on BBO.

 

So people who play online exclusively will tend to do better in the dollars per point measure. Contrast this to playing at clubs, where the typical entry fee is $6-8 and the masterpoint award is often less than in a BBO online tourney. I'm sure that most people who do well in BBO tournaments would not have success in national tournaments, even the sort of "mixed success" that I've managed in my brief time playing.

[Guest Jlall]

I'm not sure what all this bashing of masterpoints is about. If the point of this post is "masterpoints are not a good evaluator of skill" we all know this already. Anyone who is an experienced player knows that masterpoints don't measure skill. That is not their job either.

 

They are very good at enticing people to play. There are numerous "pay" clubs that charge the same amount as ACBL. ACBL consistently draws more tables than them. Why? Let's be honest, it's because people want the masterpoints. More people playing is good for the game of bridge. So, in my opinion, masterpoints are good for the game of bridge.

 

Adam, I just want to know why do you care? You were 3rd in a national pair game, and made the final day of the LM pairs. I'm sure this is what you remember, and this is what you tell people, and you are happy because of this. I doubt if you got 200 points for those achievements you would be happier about it. The players who are at the level of getting 3rd in a national pair game are past the point of needing an incentive to play other than the game itself and competition and achievement.

 

Indeed, some might say you got too MANY of the only points that matter (plat) in an event that was concurrent with half a dozen other national events.