Poll: 1S 2D 3H

[Strangway]

This came up today and I thought my understanding of the uncontested 2/1 auction:

 

1S 2D 3H

 

was absolutely standard as a splinter in support of diamonds. I tried to look it up and had a heck of a time finding it?!?

 

I informally polled a few friends and got a split decision.

 

What is eveyone else's opinion? Can anyone give me a few references to check out?

[Miron]

1♠ - p - 2♦ - p

2♥, non forsing, hearts (usually up to 17-18 HCP)

3♥, forsing, hearts (above 18), some play even as game forsing

4♥, splinter for ♦

 

Has to be this way if (and that is the standard and 2/1 way):

1♠ - p - 2♦ - p

2♥

is not forsing.

 

edited: That's nonsence. (mr1303 is right, but some had not managed to read that reply, so don't try to convince me that this is just wrong). I keep it here just to make sence for most of this forum :lol:

[mr1303]

1♠ - p - 2♦ - p

2♥, non forsing, hearts (usually up to 17-18 HCP)

3♥, forsing, hearts (above 18), some play even as game forsing

4♥, splinter for ♦

 

Has to be this way if (and that is the standard and 2/1 way):

1♠ - p - 2♦ - p

2♥

is not forsing.

 

No offence, but you don't appear to know what you're talking about. The whole idea of playing 2/1 is that when you make a 2/1 it is FORCING TO GAME.

 

1S P 2D is a 2/1, and as such is forcing to game. Therefore, new suits after a 2/1 has been made are also forcing.

 

1S 2D

2H = 5+ spades 4+ hearts, GAME FORCING. This can be made on a 5413 11 count (if you open these hands) or a 19 count (with the intention of catching up later)

 

1S 2D

3H

 

Mike Lawrence says that there are two different alternatives. You can either play it as 5-5 with 2 good suits and most of your points in your suits, or you can play it as a splinter. Either is workable, as long as you've discussed it in advance.

 

1S 2D

4H

 

This is definitely a splinter, and it suggests a hand that doesn't have any interest at all in playing in 3NT (as compared with bidding 3H). For me this would show a void.

 

Fred and Mike Lawrence have released some good software on the 2 over 1 system, which I recommend.

[Miron]

1♠ - p - 2♦ - p

2♥, non forsing, hearts (usually up to 17-18 HCP)

3♥, forsing, hearts (above 18), some play even as game forsing

4♥, splinter for ♦

 

Has to be this way if (and that is the standard and 2/1 way):

1♠ - p - 2♦ - p

2♥

is not forsing.

 

No offence, but you don't appear to know what you're talking about. The whole idea of playing 2/1 is that when you make a 2/1 it is FORCING TO GAME.

 

1S P 2D is a 2/1, and as such is forcing to game. Therefore, new suits after a 2/1 has been made are also forcing.

 

1S 2D

2H = 5+ spades 4+ hearts, GAME FORCING. This can be made on a 5413 11 count (if you open these hands) or a 19 count (with the intention of catching up later)

 

1S 2D

3H

 

Mike Lawrence says that there are two different alternatives. You can either play it as 5-5 with 2 good suits and most of your points in your suits, or you can play it as a splinter. Either is workable, as long as you've discussed it in advance.

 

1S 2D

4H

 

This is definitely a splinter, and it suggests a hand that doesn't have any interest at all in playing in 3NT (as compared with bidding 3H). For me this would show a void.

 

Fred and Mike Lawrence have released some good software on the 2 over 1 system, which I recommend.

You're right. Was one of my bad moments (I didn't realize, that 2♦ was GF, even there was written it is 2/1, I treate it as SAYC).

 

Sorry.

 

BTW:

Agree with your comment. I prefer 3♥ as splinter, but could be played as 5-5.

[cherdano]

Just to avoid any confusion, 1♠-2♦-2♥ is 100% forcing in SAYC, too.

 

I think 1♠-2♦-3♥ is one of the bids you just don't make undiscussed. While I would guess partner will take it as splinter, I won't unnecessarily bet a lot of IMPs on that.

 

Arend

[luis]

1♠ - p - 2♦ - p

2♥, non forsing, hearts (usually up to 17-18 HCP)

3♥, forsing, hearts (above 18), some play even as game forsing

4♥, splinter for ♦

 

Has to be this way if (and that is the standard and 2/1 way):

1♠ - p - 2♦ - p

2♥

is not forsing.

Try to say things like "I think" or "in my opinion" specially when you are going to post things that doesn't make any sense in 2/1 or Sayc.

 

3♥ is usually understood as a limited hand with a singleton in hearts and 4 card support for diamonds after 1♠-2♦. The most important thing is that it limits the opener hand, you have to agree with your pd about the range, something typical would be a normal sound opening in the 12-15 range.

[Guest Jlall]

Have always played 3H as a splinter here.

[pclayton]

When I sit down with a pickup pard and play 2/1, this is always one of the auctions I ask about.

 

With most learned partners, this is a splinter.

[helene_t]

Strange, I cannot find a definition of this call in BWS. Anybody who can?

[P_Marlowe]

Just to avoid any confusion, 1♠-2♦-2♥ is 100% forcing in SAYC, too.

In Acol as well, maybe not widely known,

although 3♥ in the sequence

1♠-2♦-3♥

would be natural and +19.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Finch]

In basic Acol 1S - 2D - 2H is not forcing.

It's true that the majority of decent players playing an acol-based system play it as forcing, but that's a 'treatment' resulting from slightly higher 2/1 standards.

 

If you turned up at my local club and played with a random lol you could easily be passed out in 2H.

[chicken]

as far as i know SEF and German FORUM D+ play it as 5-5 17+HCP

[ArcLight]

Mike Lawrence also adds that you dont make the jump shift without 2 good suits, HCP (in other suits) are not enough.

 

His big warning is this sequence is one you must discuss with pard. If you make an assumption that turns out to be wrong, you will get a bad result.

 

If you play it as a splinter, then you can use a jump to the 4 level as showing a void.

[Strangway]

Nice to hear the discussion.

 

I found a reference in my library at last: Modern Bridge Conventions (by Root and Pavlicek) says splinter in their "extended splinters" section. I have noted the comment regarding Lawrence suggesting that this is an agreement that should be discussed.

 

I think splinter is better than 55 since it falls with the general rule of "unneccesary jumps are splinter" so it is easier to remember. With 55 just bid hearts and bid them again...there is always "serious 3nt" to catch up on values, or just blast to rkc or a slam.

 

Yes: 2H is 100% forcing in either 2/1 or sayc and I don't know why anybody would think differently. In sayc partners' 2/1 response PROMISES another bid.

 

With an expert partner and no discussion my feeling would be splinter. With a strong 55 partner should not take a chance on a misinterpretation of 3H.

[Trinidad]

My standard agreement for splinters, other than responder's first bid, is that a jump is a splinter when the non jump bid is natural and forcing.

 

It may not be perfect in every situation, but with this agreement it is impossible to have a misunderstanding about whether a bid is a splinter or not.

 

Rik

[han]

I have played 1S-2D-3H as a splinter, but I have also played it as 5-5 with decent suits and some extras. I'm happy with either agreement.

 

 

I think I'm not going to play with a random lol at Frances's club in the near future! :)

[EricK]

I think that 5-5 with good suits is the better agreement. But this is one of the situations where you should play the one your partnership is going to remember as the difference is very slight.

 

If I hadn't discussed this sequence I would not make the bid (Just bid 2H with the 5-5 and 3D with the support)

[mghmaine]

It makes no diff whether 2D is GF or not. 2H would be forcing in any non-weird style, so 3H is a splinter.

If you play splinter, a good rule that the level above a force is a splinter. In this way, over 1D-1S, 4C would be what you need to say to splinter.

[keylime]

This is a toughie. I would tend to lean to a solid 5-5 because minors are so abused and neglected at this game that to actually have "support" for one of them through a scientific splinter may cause a rapid heart attack to partner. :ph34r:

[calg]

I think this needs partnership agreement. Someone take the 3♥ as splinter, while another group of people may take 3♥ as 5+♥ suit and invitational.

 

With a fresh partnership and without previous discussion, you can have another choice to avoid misunderstanding for bidding 3♥ as splinter. That is you would better bid 3♦ first to show limit+ and ♥ support. Then you will have a way to cue bid the ♥ later.

[awm]

If you play that 2♦ is not 100% game forcing, there are pretty big advantages to playing 3♥ as natural and forcing. While a 2♥ call would of course be forcing, the issue is auctions like:

 

1♠-2♦-2♥-3♦-3♥

1♠-2♦-2♥-2NT-3♥

 

Suppose that the two-over-one bidder's second bid was not forcing. Is opener's 3♥ here forcing (choice of games) or just a weak 5-5 or 6-5 majors hand? Given that people do open a lot of really light hands holding great length in the majors, it seems like it's fairly frequent that opener will have a non-gamegoing 5-5 or 6-5 (probably more likely than a game forcing one). Then again, how would you bid the game-forcing majors hand if this was NF? Playing a direct 3♥ as the big 5-5 hand solves this problem... and the loss of the splinter is not that big a loss, especially if a direct raise to 3♦ would be forcing (which it should be).

 

Of course, if you play 2/1 is 100% game force, there are some issues with "how big a hand does opener have" because people don't seem to ever show/deny extras in 2/1... but at least both the above auctions are forcing, which makes the splinter treatment more appealing.