joshs Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 My partner and I stumbled into slam last night, on an unconvincing auction, on the following card combination: KJx xx xx AQJxxxAQxxx K9xx Axx K Our Auction: 2C(10-14ish, 6+C)-2D(relay)-2S(no major, a legit opener, singleton somewhere or 7222)-2N(relay)-3N(7222)-4D(rkc)-4H(1/4)-[x]-4S(Q ask)-4N(yes and S K)-6C I sort of expected Kx xx Kx AQxxxxx. Anyway, who has a suggested auction in their favorite methods, which is convincing? This is also hard playing natural methods... In TOSR, I at least come reasonable close:2C(6+C, 10-14, no side suit)-2H(GFing Relay)-3C(3226 or 2227)-3D(Which?)-3S(3226, min, A mild underbid?)-4S(Mild Slam Try, Overbid?)-5D(I like my hand, 2 key cards, no trump Q)-6S but since I don't know about the C Q and J, I can't count the 12 tricks in the acution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mghmaine Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Seems not to hard in not very sophisticated natural methods2C-2D,3C-3S,4C*-4NT, 5H*-6S In the above, 3C is natural and denies 4-card M. 3M is natural. 4C, in our style, is a cue in support of Ss. An opener without Ss would have to bid 3NT so as not to punish partner for trying for a 5-3 fit. 5H is 2KC without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted February 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Seems not to hard in not very sophisticated natural methods2C-2D,3C-3S,4C*-4NT, 5H*-6S In the above, 3C is natural and denies 4-card M. 3M is natural. 4C, in our style, is a cue in support of Ss. An opener without Ss would have to bid 3NT so as not to punish partner for trying for a 5-3 fit. 5H is 2KC without. Well, I am not completely convinced. Your sequence is a reasonable start (after showing a min, opener can afford to cue-bid, assuming that 4C is really a cue-bid), but I can hardly say that when 6S was bid in your sequence that I knew:a. We belonged in slamb. This is better than 6C Also what would south do over 3N by north? He is still guessing about whether or not there is a club slam, although I would probably give up after opener showed a min and no spade fit, since he might have a stiff spade. Of course if he has Kx x xxx AQJxxxx 3N might be going down while we have a cold club slam.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 KJx xx xx AQJxxx<> no major, a legit opener, singleton somewhere or 7222 What was correct rebid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Correct rebid was 2NT, showing a (223)6 pattern and maximum, or perhaps 3♣ (any min). My reasoning for the 2♠ bid was: (1) My clubs are really good, so I don't want to show a min when we can make 3NT opposite many invites.(2) I really don't want to be declarer in 3NT, with both reds wide open, so I will let partner bid it.(3) If partner thinks I have 7 clubs, well, at least my club spots are really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Correct rebid was 2NT, showing a (223)6 pattern and maximum Over 2NT, partner should be able to bid 3♠ natural and forcing. Now opener's hand raises to 4♠ - also opener should advance cuebid ♦s or ♥s on the way to 4♠ with a good red suit value, so the bid of 4♠ implies a fair bit of stuff is in ♣s and ♠s. Responder should bid 4NT RKCB, and then play opener for a working Kxx xx xx AQxxxx and hope that opener also has one or both of the black jacks, or that something nice happens, such as ♣s and ♠s both spliting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Sam and my structure tends to have a fair bit of room for judgement, so I can't necessarily predict the auction. However, there are some fairly convincing possibilities: 2♣ (1) - 2♦ (2) - 3♣ (3) - 3♠ (4) - 4♠ (5) - 4NT (6) - 5♥ (7) - 6♠ Here: (1) 10-14 hcp 6+♣ (2) 4+♥; either inv+ or weak with 6+♥ (3) very good clubs, normally a one-loser suit although there is some leeway if holding a heart void, also implies at most one pointy stopper and minimum values (4) natural, 5+♠, maybe longer ♠ than ♥ (5) agrees ♠, failure to cuebid a red suit normally denies a control there but responder's 3NT or 4♣ would have been natural (6) 1430 keycard in ♠ (7) two without the queen Opener pretty much knows responder's hand here. Of course the 3♣ call by opener was somewhat optional, and with doubleton heart it may be reasonable to accept the transfer. Then we get: 2♣ (1) - 2♦ (2) - 2♥ (3) - 2♠ (4) - 3♠ (5) - 4♦ (6) - 5♣ (7) - 6♠ (8) (1) 10-14 hcp 6+♣ (2) 4+♥ (3) normal accept of transfer, denies 4♥, tends to deny 3♥ (4) 4+♠ and 4+♥ (5) 3♠, maximum, denies 3♥, denies a diamond stopper (6) diamond control, note that 3NT/4♣ would be natural here (7) club cuebid denies a heart control but must show a good hand for slam even in context of max values (else 4♠) (8) very strong clubs and a spade card are a virtual must for this bidding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted February 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Yeah I could have bid 3S natural and forcing. I expected that either:Partner had 7 clubs, and then I wanted to play in clubs, or partner had a singleton and I could show spades after partner shows a stiff diamond (pig suey) or hearts, and just bid 3N if he showed a stiff spade. Adam double crossed me by choosing this sequence with this shape. :D In anycase the main theme here is that I have a hand type that is interested in 4 different strains, and is not sure about level. I need to know suit quality (for clubs) and a location of singleton for everything. And I have 1 level less to exchange info than natural bidders, so the question is, what is the best use of the space.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 KJx xx xx AQJxxxAQxxx K9xx Axx K I'd probably bid it this way: 2C - 2S3S - 3NT(slam try)4C - 4D4S - 4NT5H - 6S I normally use Cohen-Berkowitz responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 It seems like a lot of these auctions aren't really confirming the quality of the club suit. It seems to me that this slam isn't so great without the ♣T. The suggestion seems to be that "since opener couldn't cuebid a red suit, he must have really good clubs." Aren't either of the following 2♣ openers: KJxQxQxAJxxxx KJxQJxxAQxxxx And would you really bid NT rather than raise spades with: KxxxxxxAQJxxx I guess I'm just not convinced by a lot of the constructions people have put forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 My Precision variant (basically same opening bid: 2♣ = 10 - 14, 6+♣) 2♣ 2♦2NT 3♠4♠ 4NT5♥ 5/6♠ 2NT = No shortness, denies solid suit3♠ = GF 5+♠4♠ = 3♠ (must be 3226 then)4NT = RKC5♥ = 2 without ♠Q Now you either guess partner's ♣ are good or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 It seems like a lot of these auctions aren't really confirming the quality of the club suit. It seems to me that this slam isn't so great without the ♣T. The suggestion seems to be that "since opener couldn't cuebid a red suit, he must have really good clubs." Aren't either of the following 2♣ openers: KJxQxQxAJxxxx KJxQJxxAQxxxx And would you really bid NT rather than raise spades with: KxxxxxxAQJxxx I guess I'm just not convinced by a lot of the constructions people have put forward. In the suggested auction, it was based on 2NT showing a max 6-3-2-2, so the last hand doesn't apply. The first two do, and one should read: "hope that opener also has one or both of the black jacks, or that something nice happens, such as ♣s and ♠s both spliting" - that is the ♠J is important in providing another entry to dummy hopefully to set up ♣s. Also note that 6♣ on the second hand is a pretty reasonable contract - love to be there if ♠s 3-2 and ♣s at worst 4-2, or if get a black suit lead. On the first some good stuff might happen including black suits both split, or ♣Q doubleton or ♦ lead and Q wins, or ♥ ace lead, etc. Sure, there is no bullet proof way to get to all the good slams and avoid all the poor ones. However if the partnership employs two-suited RKCB after the suggested auction, responder could find out if opener is missing a key card and both black queens - that is missing the ♣ queen, and the ♥ ace or the ♠ king. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 It seems like a lot of these auctions aren't really confirming the quality of the club suit. It seems to me that this slam isn't so great without the ♣T. The suggestion seems to be that "since opener couldn't cuebid a red suit, he must have really good clubs." Aren't either of the following 2♣ openers: KJxQxQxAJxxxx KJxQJxxAQxxxx And would you really bid NT rather than raise spades with: KxxxxxxAQJxxx I guess I'm just not convinced by a lot of the constructions people have put forward. I haven't put forth an auction yet, but I can say that the first hand is definitely a 1NT opener for me. All my points are in my short suits. Second hand is close between 1NT and 2♣. I guess it would depend on how I feel on the day. Third hand is definitely a minimum 2♣ opener. We play relays over 2♦, but with the given responder's hand I would start with 2♠ which is natural and forcing. Then it is simply a matter of good judgment from there. I can't say I'd reach slam for certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted March 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 KJx xx xx AQJxxxAQxxx K9xx Axx K I'd probably bid it this way: 2C - 2S3S - 3NT(slam try)4C - 4D4S - 4NT5H - 6S I normally use Cohen-Berkowitz responses. I normally use cohen-berk also (I like having a forcing 2M bid) but wasn't certain at the table with a non-regular partner if 2S was forcing (its pretty non-standard in precision). We didn't have much time to discuss all the details of our fancy club system and I was not sure how much of my notes we were actually playing... Its also not clear what to do next after 2C-2S-3C-3H-3S (not what would happen here). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Maybe, a serious 3NT try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted March 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 2C-2S-3C-3H-3S-3N has to be natural, and is probably the correct bid... Partner will almost always pass, but not always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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