Interesting debate

[Guest Jlall]

I was watching my dad last night. He had 4243 and opened 1N. 2C by his pard, 2H on my right. He asked me if he was supposed to pass or 2S, I said I think 2S. He duly passed :)

 

My question is over 2H what is opener supposed to do when he has 4S?

 

A) always bid 2S with a hand that isn't Xing 2H

B ) bid 2S with a doubleton heart

C) never bid 2S

D) bid 2S with a maximum only

E) bid 2S with a 5 card suit only

F) other.

 

At the time he asked I thought, within reason, A (obviously always is an overbid). He felt that E was correct.

 

Also, what about if the auction starts 1N p 2C 2S ? When does opener bid 3H?

 

Any thoughts on this would be quite welcome, thanks.

[Fluffy]

I think 2♠ unless he has 4♥ (then double)

[hrothgar]

Given the "simplicity" of the sequence, I'm really torn regarding the best way to proceed. On the one hand, I want to ensure that we're still able to have reasonable constructive sequences. On the other, I don't want to screw partner if he trotted out Stayman on a weak 5-4-2-2 or 4-3-5-1 hand. Life would be a lot easier if we could rule out suicide Stayman, however, I'd not willing to give this up based on the chance that RHO might overcall during our Stayman sequences.

 

Curious regaridng whether you discussed the definition of pass and double. I suspect that you could probably design a pretty reasonable structure based on establishing a forcing pass...

[han]

It is consistent with my style to play:

 

Double = 4 spades, partner may convert.

Pass = tends to deny 4 spades (unless really penalty oriented). Double by partner is takeout oriented.

2S = 5 spades.

[Miron]

I play weak NT, and there is just one bid: pass (what if partner is weak).

Against strong (if stayman is at least invitational), I would prefer:

double as penalty

2♠ with 4+spades (my attitude is that if openners has 5-card major in NT he is NOT searching 5-3 fit).

[adhoc3]

As for me:

 

1NT--pass--2C--(2H)

 

2S= 5 spade

X = t/o, ensure 4 spades

pass = not of above

 

if 1NT--pass--2C--(2S)

 

3H = 5 hearts and value, never bid this in my memory

X = t/o, ensure 4 hearts and value, very rare. (Why dont let Pard talk?)

pass = not of above

 

I wonder direct X for penalty has any usage: whatif pard has an yarborough?

 

BTW:

1NT--(2H)--2S, showing 4 spades.

1NT--(2C/D)--2H/S, showing 5 cards major.

[Miron]

I wonder direct X for penalty has any usage: whatif pard has an yarborough?

 

Make sence only when stayman is at least invitational.

[cherdano]

I think 2♠ unless he has 4♥ (then double)

This would have been my guess as "standard" when this situation is undiscussed.

Arend

[Gerben42]

Well regardless of the strength of your 1NT, Stayman should be at least invitational OR have both majors, meaning that if it goes

 

1NT (Pass) 2♣ (2♥)

 

Partner has a ♠ fit or it's our hand, or both. I will go with Justin's dad on this one. I pass (almost forcing) and partner will now Double with a 4-card ♥, or bid 2♠ (invite or better with 4♠), or higher with something else.

 

It may go all pass after 2♥, but only if partner has 4♥ and thinks it's opponent's hand, we may have 4 - 4♠ in that case but he thinks "we can only compete to 2♠, instead be happy they are in a misfitted 2♥ rather than a fitted 3minor."

[pclayton]

I've never discussed it with my pards either. In what seems to be a standard context, 2♣ is one or both majors (weak-->strong) or an invitational raise to 2N.

 

Ergo, maybe the right answer is "F"; 2♠ shows 4 but promises a ♥ stop.

 

Otherwise responder has an insolvable problem with: Qxx, xxx, AQxx, xxx after 1N - (p) - 2♣ - (2H) - 2S - (p) - ?

 

So what is a double by Opener? I would vote for a 32?? max I think.

 

Pass by opener could be a trap (but only opposite some values) or a hand with 4 spades but no heart stop.

[Guest Jlall]

Good thing I added in F :P

[benlessard]

if 2c is at least INV

 

 

Pass with most minimum hand

 

X penalty oriented

 

2s 5s Minimum

 

if max ill bid at the 3 level.

 

 

 

 

if 2c could be weak

 

X should show both majors.

 

Bidding 2s with 4 is running after trouble IMHO

 

i would bid 2s with 5 and a non-minimum hand.

[Free]

Good thing I added in F :P

It's always the most popular choice :P

 

What I used to play was:

pass = no 4M

Dbl = ♥

2♠ = ♠

 

After Phil's analyse I think it's very poor :lol: With my current f2f partners I didn't discuss this yet.

[Blofeld]

I haven't discussed it with my partners, but thinking about it I reached the same structure as Han as a sensible system.

[Winstonm]

This is a very good subject and one I've thought of myself. Of course, a lot depends on methods. Assuming 4-suit transfers as a start, responder for his 2C bid will have either 1) an invite with no major, 2) a major or both with a weak, invitational, or good hand.

 

Opponents overcall in a major. Obviously, this reduces the likelihood that partner has a weak hand with both majors; therefore, he is more likely to have invitational or better values, though not guaranteed.

 

I think the wise thing here over 2H is this:

 

Pass: semi-forcing and denies shortish hearts.

Double: shows heart doubleton with spade tolerance to fair support.

2S: Good 4 cards minimum.

2N: 2254 or the like.

 

Over 2S:

 

Pass: semi-forcing.

Double: Minimum with 4 hearts.

2N: Max with 4 hearts.

3H: 5 card suit.

 

Winston