Judgment and Treatment

[Echognome]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=sa4hj984d54ckq853]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(P) - P - (2♠) - P

(P) - X - (P) - ?[/hv]

 

I have a few questions on this hand.

 

1) Is Lebensohl a good treatment to use here?

 

2) What is your call if you play Lebensohl here?

 

3) What is your call if you don't play Lebensohl here?

[luis]

1) Lebensohl is a normal treatment agaisnt weak 2s when pd doubles.

 

2) 3♣ showing values (2NT and pass 3♣ would be weakish)

 

3) 3♣

[Miron]

I dont play lebensohl from reopen, but it can be played. I have never decided wheter the lebensohl is good from reopen (no is now winning). The disadvantage is that you can't bid 4-card suits, you have to lie them (2♥ - p - p - x | p - 2♠ should be 5-cards in lebensohl...).

 

3♣

3♣

[Finch]

To back one step, I have a general rule which is that

 

- if game is still possible because one hand is unlimited, then lebensohl is on

- if game is not possible because both hands are limited, then 2NT scramble is on

 

So 1S x 2S P P x lebensohl is on, 1S P 2S P P x P lebensohl is off as both hands are limited.

 

That's a very good rule (I recommend it), but it leaves you trying to work out whether game is still possible or not on a particular auction.

 

I would say lebensohl is off here, but I've realised I'm not 100% certain what my partnership plays. While 4th hand could be quite strong for the pass of 2S, they are limited to the extent that game from high card strength is unlikely; game from distribution can just be bid.

 

To answer the other points:

 

2) 3C

3) 2NT scramble followed by 3H. For a passed hand double partner is about 99% to have 4 hearts. If he bids 3C over 2NT, then 3H by me is now a very mild game try, and he'll raise with 5 of them (x Kxxxx Kxxx Axx say). If he bids 3D over 2NT I'll bid 3H showing hearts and clubs, which at least gets both my suits across.

 

It's quite hard to construct hands where game is making. Make the SA the DA and it's easier.

[Guest Jlall]

In all of my regular partnerships I have the agreement that lebensohl is not on when the passed hand is a Xer. It doesn't make sense to play leb when you've both passed at your first turn. I would bid 3C whether or not I was playing leb.

[MickyB]

I would expect 2NT here to be scrambling, and I would probably bid that to cater to partner doubling on 2452 and the like - I don't think I'm worth pulling 3♣ to 3♥ to show a mild game-try. Bidding 3♣ over the double is perfectly reasonable.

[Echognome]

Ok my follow up on this. You aren't quite sure of your agreements, but decide to bid 3♣. The auction continues with 3♠ on your left and another double from partner.

 

What do you do now?

[MickyB]

4♥ now.

[Guest Jlall]

4H, and ask partner to pass me the crack pipe.

[mike777]

4H, and ask partner to pass me the crack pipe.

ditto.

 

I assume partner would have opened on:

x...ATxxx...ATxxx...xx or

x...ATxxx...xx...ATxxx

 

Perhaps partner was down in the basement checking on what was cooking in that Meth lab :).

[joshs]

When I am playing Leb here, I bid 2N announcing I am not interested in game. I would bid directly with more like a 13 count.

 

What I actually play in all balancing or pre-balancing auctions is what I called scrambled leb:

2N is 2 places to play OR a bid of the highest possible suit without game interest

A bid of the highest possible suit shows game interest

Others are natural and wide ranging

 

The idea is that we might want to bid game in hearts (when there suit is spades) on around 23 high and some distribution. We will not want to bid game in NT or in a minor on 23 high very often.

 

When there suit is hearts, showing values with 3D doesn't help much, but its a freebee....

 

NOTE: I do not treat 2M-P-P-? as a balancing auction by an unpassed hand, and I don't shade my xes much here, so normal leb applies. The actual auction provided is clearly a balancing auction (x by a passed hand), so safety, and not accurate game bidding is the most important goal. My usual style in 1M-P-2M auction is to treat xes by both players as a balancing action (OBAR style)...

[han]

I think that lebensohl is quite useless in this auction. Partner has made an accurate description of his strength, so I can jump to game if that's where I want to be. It is far more useful to play that 2NT shows two places to play.

 

As we are not going to game I choose the safest partscore, 3C.

 

Partner's double of 3S is impossible, there just isn't a passed hand good enough to double twice. I suspect that partner has a 10-count with 0-4-6-3 shape and chose not to open because of the weak diamonds (well actually I know better because Echo told me partner's hand, shoot the partner I say) so 4H may have some play.

[MickyB]

Agree with everything Josh said, except that I hadn't come across inverting a direct 3♥ and 2N then 3♥ before. That's pretty sweet.

 

Do you invert it in other 2N/4N scrambling auctions, Josh?

[joshs]

Agree with everything Josh said, except that I hadn't come across inverting a direct 3♥ and 2N then 3♥ before. That's pretty sweet.

 

Do you invert it in other 2N/4N scrambling auctions, Josh?

Yeah whenever 2N or 4N is a scramble, I use this treatment. If you play 2N then the high suit is the good hand, then you are foiled evertime partner doesn't bid clubs...

[HeartA]

1) Lebensohl is a normal treatment agaisnt weak 2s when pd doubles.

 

2) 3♣ showing values (2NT and pass 3♣ would be weakish)

 

3) 3♣

agree with luis.