A nice hand for natural bidding

[cherdano]

I had trouble coming up with hands on which 6♣ was superior to 6N.

If Brad had x Axxx Jxx KQJTx, then 6♣ only requires hearts to be 3-2 (pitch two hearts on the spades and ruff out the suit), which seems superior to the squeeze chances in 6N.

 

Arend

[awm]

Surely partner has 4♥ to bid a heart game. Since he doesn't have any of the top three spade honors, it seems kind of odd to accept a spade game try. I don't think something like a 2425 thirteen count with two small spades would be an accept. So this pretty much marks Brad with singleton spade. Fred has 19 high, so the pair should be off at most 9 or so points (okay it depends on how light Brad opens). These points include the ♥Q and an ace, and almost surely the ♠J. If Brad had solid clubs, like AKQxx, he might have tried to show them over 2♠. So most likely he has the ♥A and not the ♣A. Similarly if he has something like 1426 shape with six really good clubs (KQJxxx say) he might've tried to show those. So by far the most likely pattern is 1435, and this should include the ♥A and the ♣KQ. That's only nine points so he has to have some of the ♦Q and/or stray jacks. I think one of these hands is likely:

 

x

AJxx

Qxx

KQxxx

 

x

Axxx

Qxx

KQJxx

 

x

AJxx

Jxx

KQJxx

 

Opposite the first hand, 6♥ seems best. To make 6♣ or 6NT, you need clubs to break with the ace onside. To make 6♥, you can pitch a club on the diamond queen, so you need hearts to behave (3-2 with queen on, or possibly 4-1 break onside if Brad has the heart ten). On the second hand, 6NT is excellent, whereas 6♥ has no play (6♣ is about the same as 6NT barring really bad breaks in non-club suits). On the third hand, 6♣ will be best since the ruff of the third diamond can provide trick twelve.

 

If partner can be consulted this is probably best. Most likely partner will put us in 6♥ on the first hand and 6♣ on the second and third. If I had to simply guess a contract, 6♣ might be the best shot.

[Walddk]

I don't think he is 1435 with KQJxx or similar in clubs. In that case he would have jumped to 4♣ to show a spade splinter! With the same pattern and a diamond splinter, he could bid 4♦ which would also imply a good club suit.

 

There is no doubt in my mind: he is 2425, the only shape without a splinter, and where he is good enough to accept the game try.

 

Roland

[han]

In 6c He could have the ace of clubs and no ace of h in wich case a ♥ lead wont be fun Expert opposition can underlead the ♥A  because they know you are missing the Q♥. so 6nt seems like the best contract.

No. Brad showed 1 key card for *hearts*, so he has ♥A and not ♣A.

 

Roland

Please explain what you meant here Roland, the club ace is a keycard for hearts...

[Walddk]

In 6c He could have the ace of clubs and no ace of h in wich case a ♥ lead wont be fun Expert opposition can underlead the ♥A  because they know you are missing the Q♥. so 6nt seems like the best contract.

No. Brad showed 1 key card for *hearts*, so he has ♥A and not ♣A.

 

Roland

Please explain what you meant here Roland, the club ace is a keycard for hearts...

True Han, but it's unlikely, because he will then have a very good club suit (no ♥A or Q), and then he might have bid 3♣ en route.

 

Roland

[mikeh]

I had trouble coming up with hands on which 6♣ was superior to 6N.

If Brad had x Axxx Jxx KQJTx, then 6♣ only requires hearts to be 3-2 (pitch two hearts on the spades and ruff out the suit), which seems superior to the squeeze chances in 6N.

 

Arend

 

I agree with your hand, but I did not and do not think that this hand warrants a 4♥ call. We are talking subtle nuances here, and, as I wrote, we are at a bit of a disadvantage in that Fred will be finely attuned to Brad's style: to a degree that he could not possibly communicate in any post. Iff your hand is a 4♥ call, then I would have less difficulty than I claimed in constructing hands that work for 6♣ compared to 6♥ :rolleyes:

[hrothgar]

Surely partner has 4♥ to bid a heart game. Since he doesn't have any of the top three spade honors, it seems kind of odd to accept a spade game try.  I don't think something like a 2425 thirteen count with two small spades would be an accept. So this pretty much marks Brad with singleton spade.

This is the second person who says that the decision to accept the Spade game try makes opener with a stiff Spade...

 

If the 2♠ advance is natural and shows values in Spades, I'd think that a stiff opposite it is a flaw, not an asset. If 2♠ were defined as a "help suit" game try or some such things would be different. (Help suit game tries ask partner to covner losers in the suit so ruffing values and controls are equally valid).

 

Its also important to note that one might expect that opener would advance to game with a good maximum even if he lacked the "right" hand to support Spades. Case in point: Fred chose to bid 2♠ holding AKQx in the suit... How likely is it that Brad would hold a fitting Spade honor?

[Walddk]

I doubt that many have an agreement with their partners about this. Let's assume that 2♠ is a game trial bid or better (Fred's post). How do you interpret 4♣, 4♦ and 4♥ respectively on the actual auction :

 

1♣ - 1♥

2♥ - 2♠

4♣

4♦

4♥

 

I know that I gave my interpretation in an earlier post. Here it is again for convenience:

 

4♣: 1-4-3-5

4♦: 3-4-1-5

4♥: 2-4-2-5

 

How about you?

 

Roland

[hrothgar]

I doubt that many have an agreement with their partners about this. Let's assume that 2♠ is a game trial bid or better (Fred's post). How do you interpret 4♣, 4♦ and 4♥ respectively on the actual auction :

 

1♣ - 1♥

2♥ - 2♠

4♣

4♦

4♥

 

I know that I gave my interpretation in an earlier post. Here it is again for convenience:

 

4♣: 1-4-3-5

4♦: 3-4-1-5

4♥: 2-4-2-5

 

How about you?

 

Roland

Here are my own thoughts:

 

I like using 4♦ to show 3=4=1=5 shape (2-4-1-6 would also be possible)

 

I'm less sanguine about using 4♣ to show Spade shortage. Personally, I'd prefer to use this to define the strength of the Club suit. In many ways, the auction could be considered analagous to 1♣ - 1♥ - 4♣. Obviously, the sequence being discussed show a much weaker, but I still like using it to describe the suit.

 

I'm also not sure whether the 4♥ rebid should explicitly promise 2=4=2=5 shape (even though I suggested that Brad was likely to hold 2=4=2=5) For example, what would the "correct" bid be with 3=4=1=5 shape and a stiff Ace or King?

[Walddk]

I doubt that many have an agreement with their partners about this. Let's assume that 2♠ is a game trial bid or better (Fred's post). How do you interpret 4♣, 4♦ and 4♥ respectively on the actual auction :

 

1♣ - 1♥

2♥ - 2♠

4♣

4♦

4♥

 

I know that I gave my interpretation in an earlier post. Here it is again for convenience:

 

4♣: 1-4-3-5

4♦: 3-4-1-5

4♥: 2-4-2-5

 

How about you?

 

Roland

I'm less sanguine about using 4♣ to show Spade shortage. Personally, I'd prefer to use this to define the strength of the Club suit.

You can show that by bidding 3♣ followed by 4♥. Then you have 4♣ free as a spade splinter. I don't fear that 3♣ will be passed, because 2♠ establishes a force to at least 3♥ in my opinion.

 

Roland

[luis]

For the bidding I think his distribution has to be 2-4-2-5, at least that is in my view the most expected shape he can have for the bidding. He might have something like:

Jx

AJxx

xx

KQJxx

 

or

 

xx

AJxx

xx

KQJxx

 

or

 

Jx

AT8x

Qx

KQJTx

 

I would bid 6NT because if there is a problem in clubs or hearts the contract is not inmediately down, since there will be squeeze chances. If I choose to play in clubs or hearts instead I commit myself to find a good trump break and since there's nothing to ruff at all I think that 6NT will bring most chances to our side.

[mike777]

For the bidding I think his distribution has to be 2-4-2-5, at least that is in my view the most expected shape he can have for the bidding. He might have something like:

Jx

AJxx

xx

KQJxx

 

or

 

xx

AJxx

xx

KQJxx

 

or

 

Jx

AT8x

Qx

KQJTx

 

I would bid 6NT because if there is a problem in clubs or hearts  the contract is not inmediately down, since there will be squeeze chances. If I choose to play in clubs or hearts instead I commit myself to find a good trump break and since there's nothing to ruff at all I think that 6NT will bring most chances to our side.

I do not understand bidding 4H with any of these hands. When do you bid 3H? I assume your opening one bid promised some values? Are all of these a mandatory opening bid let alone a jump to 4h in Fred's system?

[luke warm]

i agree with mike, which is why i can't buy the 2425 hand.. if, as fred said, 2S was a game try (or was taken as such by brad), and if (as happened) brad accepted this try, 2425 doesn't fit.. the possible shapes that would accept a game try in spades seems to be limited to

 

1435 or just possibly 3415

4405

4414

(1444 ruled out by the opening)

 

so i repeat my earlier question - why can't brad have a 3 suited hand short in diamonds (in addition to the possible short in spades hand)? would *you* accept a game try with a doubleton in pard's trial suit? i wouldn't

[cherdano]

i agree with mike, which is why i can't buy the 2425 hand.. if, as fred said, 2S was a game try (or was taken as such by brad), and if (as happened) brad accepted this try, 2425 doesn't fit.. the possible shapes that would accept a game try in spades seems to be limited to

 

1435 or just possibly 3415

4405

4414

(1444 ruled out by the opening)

 

so i repeat my earlier question - why can't brad have a 3 suited hand short in diamonds (in addition to the possible short in spades hand)? would *you* accept a game try with a doubleton in pard's trial suit? i wouldn't

I certainly would if I were generally maximum for my previous bidding.

 

Anyway, I am 99.9% sure Brad won't have 4 spades, as he would show the double fit by raising to 3♠.

 

Arend

[awm]

I just don't see why a 2-4-2-5 twelve count is a game bid. These seem to be pretty trashy openers, often including queen or jack in the short suit and very minimum values. The spade try hasn't really improved a hand with xx or Jx in spades all that much. Perhaps something like:

 

Jx

AJxx

Qx

KQJxx

 

would be an accept on pure power. Once again, 6NT and 6♣ look pretty good with 6♥ looking not so good.

[luke warm]

i agree with mike, which is why i can't buy the 2425 hand.. if, as fred said, 2S was a game try (or was taken as such by brad), and if (as happened) brad accepted this try, 2425 doesn't fit.. the possible shapes that would accept a game try in spades seems to be limited to

 

1435 or just possibly 3415

4405

4414

(1444 ruled out by the opening)

 

so i repeat my earlier question - why can't brad have a 3 suited hand short in diamonds (in addition to the possible short in spades hand)? would *you* accept a game try with a doubleton in pard's trial suit? i wouldn't

I certainly would if I were generally maximum for my previous bidding.

 

Anyway, I am 99.9% sure Brad won't have 4 spades, as he would show the double fit by raising to 3♠.

 

Arend

in that case brad is 3415 (with ♠JTx) else 1435.. if he's 2425 maybe he would accept with a max hand, i don't know...

[luis]

For the bidding I think his distribution has to be 2-4-2-5, at least that is in my view the most expected shape he can have for the bidding. He might have something like:

Jx

AJxx

xx

KQJxx

 

or

 

xx

AJxx

xx

KQJxx

 

or

 

Jx

AT8x

Qx

KQJTx

 

I would bid 6NT because if there is a problem in clubs or hearts  the contract is not inmediately down, since there will be squeeze chances. If I choose to play in clubs or hearts instead I commit myself to find a good trump break and since there's nothing to ruff at all I think that 6NT will bring most chances to our side.

I do not understand bidding 4H with any of these hands. When do you bid 3H? I assume your opening one bid promised some values? Are all of these a mandatory opening bid let alone a jump to 4h in Fred's system?

Because you don't play to miss the vulnerable games, pd made a game-try so if you open light you are only supossed to reject the try on a very very bad hand such as:

 

xxx

Axxx

QJx

KQx

 

A hand with 5 good clubs and 4 card support in hearts should accept a try regardless of the strength.

That is what I think may be wrong for Fred-Brad style.

 

Luis

[kenrexford]

In my humble opinion, the ONLY reason for a bash bid here (remember, why did Brad not cuebid) is to avoid a damaging lead. Isolation of diamonds as weak encourages a diamond lead, which may be bad. This leads to the 1435 conclusion.

 

Of course, the counter to all of this is that such a bash isolates diamonds as much as cuebidding. This is one objection I have to not making cooperative cuebids. The bash theory often isolates the problem you are trying to hide as much as actually bidding around the problem, if the opponents are good.

 

This assessment, of course, is VERY subject to the theory that 4H isolates diamond weakness. If 4H does not logically lead to this conclusion, then my diamond leads against this auction are unfounded. Hence, I am either doubly right or doubly wrong. LOL! However, Fred's actual hand suggests that this was, indeed, the correct analysis.

 

With, say, 2425, without any pointed values and no club King and no heart Queen, 4H does seem insane. A moysian try is more plausible. Even worse is 4414, as there would be no rational reason for hiding the diamond feature.

[Walddk]

For the bidding I think his distribution has to be 2-4-2-5, at least that is in my view the most expected shape he can have for the bidding. He might have something like:

Jx

AJxx

xx

KQJxx

 

or

 

xx

AJxx

xx

KQJxx

 

or

 

Jx

AT8x

Qx

KQJTx

 

I would bid 6NT because if there is a problem in clubs or hearts  the contract is not inmediately down, since there will be squeeze chances. If I choose to play in clubs or hearts instead I commit myself to find a good trump break and since there's nothing to ruff at all I think that 6NT will bring most chances to our side.

I do not understand bidding 4H with any of these hands. When do you bid 3H? I assume your opening one bid promised some values? Are all of these a mandatory opening bid let alone a jump to 4h in Fred's system?

Because you don't play to miss the vulnerable games, pd made a game-try so if you open light you are only supossed to reject the try on a very very bad hand such as:

 

xxx

Axxx

QJx

KQx

 

A hand with 5 good clubs and 4 card support in hearts should accept a try regardless of the strength.

That is what I think may be wrong for Fred-Brad style.

 

Luis

I agree with Luis. Another way of thinking when you are asked how good your hand is within the minimum range:

 

1) What is my holding in the trial suit?

2) Do I have aces and kings, or quacks?

3) What is my shape? Could it have been worse?

4) Which format is it, MP or IMPs?

5) What is the vulnerability?

 

You need to ask yourself all those questions before deciding if you have a minimum-mininum or maximum-minimum.

 

3433 with 3 small spades is the worst possible, so we can rule that out. We can also discard all hands with 3-card heart support. Those hands would not insist on hearts. A leap to game should deny a singleton, because it takes all room away in case responder is slam going.

 

All this will lead to the conclusion that opener is 2425 and max-min. Since the subsequent auction reveals that he doesn't have ♥Q, his club suit must be very good. His point count should be 13-14, possibly even 15 with:

 

♠ Jx

♥ AJxx

♦ QJ

♣ KQJxx

 

In an ideal world he also has ♣10, but that is probably too much to ask. ♦Qx is more likely than QJ because he might have opened 1NT on 15 and this shape in order to avoid a rebid problem after 1♣ - 1♠.

 

I am sure Fred gave this a lot of thought before deciding what to do over 5♥. I am waiting (im)patiently to see what he did, but I think you can read between the lines that 6NT was what he came out of the tank with.

 

Question 3: How do you play as declarer?

 

Fred must have had the problem, not Brad.

 

Roland

[Echognome]

I agree that responder is most likely to be 2=4=2=5. Could responded not also be 3=4=2=4?

 

I imagine I'd bid the same way with:

 

♠JTx

♥JTxx

♦Qx

♣AKQx

[Guest Jlall]

3424 is probably unlikely since partner would have a terrible spade holding (unless he has JTx but that is very specific). Also his hand would be bad since there are only so many high cards in the deck.

[benlessard]

Ive assume 2s as help-suit game try but i think youre are right its advanced natural (esp since Fred bid 2s with AKQx instead of bidding 3c with 3 little) therefore a stiff is a minus and 4h should show . 2425 shapes.

 

We need to know if 3 clubs could be bid with a minimum with solid clubs but i dont think so.

 

As for the Q♦ or the ♠J its depend on how light they open and how light they bid game instead of bidding 3 wich is probably very light in both case.

 

 

Ben

[fred]

Good job by a lot of you for coming about as close as possible to figuring this one out and for selecting the same final contract (6NT) that I did. Special congrats to Echoname for thinking of a viable hand for partner that did not even occur to me until I was on an airplane on the way home (but I agree with Jlall that this hand is not very likely). Roland gets a star as well for suggesting Brad's actual spade holding (which I also admit is not very likely).

 

Partner's actually hand was:

 

♠109

♥AJ8x

♦Qx

♣KQJxx

 

Of course this did not have to be his exact hand. In retrospect perhaps I was overbidding somewhat in my original post when I suggested that it was possible to figure out almost exactly what Brad was dealt. I also agree that this problem is a lot easier to "solve" if you are familiar with Brad's style - something that I obviously have a lot more knowledge of than anyone else.

 

Now that I have thought about it some more, what is really cool about this hand is that you can figure out that it is very likely that Brad was dealt the KQJxx. Situations like this are extremely rare when you play a natural system.

 

He certainly could have been 1435, but in this case he would have sound high card values, because this distribution presents "rebid problems" for us (because rebidding 2♣ shows a 6-card suit in our system). We rebid 1NT over 1♠ with such hands. Probably I should have mention this in my original post (sorry).

 

Since rebidding 1NT with a singleton is not exactly an appealling prospect, we prefer to Pass marginal opening bids with hands that contain this pattern. This makes it less likely that 6♣ is right because Brad would Pass some of the 1435 hands with Jxx or (especially) xxx of diamonds.

 

In any case, at the table my mental simulation of the few hands that were possible for Brad suggested that 6♣ would occasionally be better than 6NT, but that it was more likely that 6NT was better. The actual hand that Brad held is a good example. Still, well done by many of you for even considering 6♣.

 

So enough with the bidding. You get a diamond lead against 6NT. How do you play?

 

There are a lot of possible variations based on how the defenders cards could be distributed and how they might play so this is not exactly a great play problem in its current form (or in any form for that matter). I suggest that you don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out and describe all of these variations.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[luis]

Well let's see:

Club to the K is of course a given, then enter dummy again with a spade and lead another club, if clubs are 3-2 then I can play the safety play in hearts for 12. If clubs happen to be 4-1 then I only have 2 club tricks so I need 4 hearts then heart to dummy and finesse the Jack, then I need the spade+clubs squeeze.

 

Luis

[42]

Hi!

I know I interrupt a bit the process here but I would like to say that I really, really ♥love♥ this thread! The various ways of thinking and working out what is going on without complicated conventional stuff are very interesting. After the last BBP I did not dare to express myself here but I found my solution :)

I hope for more of this! Fred, can I get an autograph in Verona? Perhaps I will wear a fan t-shirt :D

Caren