2 bidding question, really need help!

[zhs1971]

1)

None, you hold:

♠3 ♥Q54 ♦Q2 ♣AQ96542

 

LHO PD RHO You

1♥ Dbl pass ??

 

2)

Both, you hold:

♠KJ3 ♥A5 ♦92 ♣A96542

 

You LHO PD RHO

1♣ 2♥ 3♦ 4♥

??

 

( PD's 3♦=nature ♦ 5+ suit and GF )

[Echognome]

1) 3♣ for me.

 

2) Pass. I don't have a good fit with partner. If he doubles I pass, else it's his decision where he wants to go.

[akhare]

1) 3♣ seems easy enough -- don't expect pard to be too thrilled given his likely ♠ length.

 

2) X -- showing good defensive values and dissuading a sack -- where are their tricks coming from?

 

Atul

[P_Marlowe]

1) 3♣ for me.

 

2) Pass. I don't have a good fit with partner. If he doubles I pass, else it's his decision where he wants to go.

same for me.

 

Marlowe

[Free]

1. 3♣, but 3NT is an alternative imo

2. easy pass

[Finch]

The first one is really weird.

I would cue bid. Second choice is 4C, not 3C.

 

If partner has a normal light take-out double we want to be in game (Axxx x Kxxx xxxx just needs clubs 1-1), so I can't just bid 3C, it doesn't show anything like this much playing strength.

 

If RHO had raised hearts, I would bid game in clubs, easy.

 

The problem is that partner almost certainly doesn't have a normal take-out double, he's got a strong balanced hand or a strong spade 1-suiter, or LHO is about to bid a lot of hearts and I'll bid 5C next round.

 

So as the cue bid is forcing to suit agreement, I cue 2H then bid 3C over 2S which is forcing.

 

On the second I pass, forcing.

[Codo]

1)

None, you hold:

♠3 ♥Q54 ♦Q2 ♣AQ96542

 

LHO PD RHO You

1♥ Dbl pass ??

 

2)

Both, you hold:

♠KJ3 ♥A5 ♦92 ♣A96542

 

You LHO PD RHO

1♣ 2♥ 3♦ 4♥

??

 

( PD's 3♦=nature ♦ 5+ suit and GF )

1 3 Club was my first thought, butf Pd really just needs Axxx,x,Kxxx,xxxx to make 5 club a good bet, so 2♥

 

2. Clear forcing pass, no idea, whether defending, or 5 in a minor is right.

[coyot]

1) 3♣. I don't want to push too far - somewhere, there's a LOT of spade cards missing in this deal. Partner might well be the one that has a strong spade-based hand. If that is the case, I want to have some room to show him I don't really like spades, but give him the room to play 4♠ anyway.

 

Imagine the auction (our side only) - x-3♣-3♠-4♣-4♠. Now partner KNOWS I don't like his spades and he's saying don't worry. My hand is then good enough to pass. If I bid 4♣ directly, I might have a problem after 4♠ - should I pass? Are his spades really that good? Or should I bid 5♣?

 

2) pass. I have some sharp values, even a chance for diamond ruff, but I still don't know how good my partner's hand is... for all I know, he might have a powerhouse with club support. Give him Axx-x-AKxxx-KQxx and he'll bid the same way... so I'll let him decide.

[whereagles]

1. 3♣, giving pard space to show his likely spade GOSH before bidding 3NT.

 

2. Dbl. If pard has unusual distribution, he'll prolly take this out.

[Finch]

I think 3C, planning to bid 3NT over 3S is a little pessismistic.

It comes down partly to what you expect for a double-then-bid hand.

I don't think

 

AKJxxx

Ax

Kxx

Kx

 

is unreasonable, when I want to be in 6C

 

I don't think

KQJ10xxx

AJx

AKx

-

 

is unreasonable, when I want to be in 6S (notice careful addition on HJ on editing)

 

 

Now, we can disagree on what is needed for double-then-bid. But tell me what hand partner has where 3NT is making and 4S and/or 5C aren't. Maybe

 

KQJxxx

xx

AKxx

K

 

(though that is a 1S overcall for me).

 

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that the winning approach on this hand is strongly determined by what our partnership thinks double-then-bid shows.

 

By the way, if we bid 3C and partner bids 3S we know it's a good single-suiter. If it goes 1S x P 3C P 3H we don't know partner has a strong single suiter in hearts, he could be 1543 with a decent 14-count or so looking for the best spot. But 5143s overcall 1S unless they are huge.

[mikeh]

It will come as little surprise that I agree with Frances on these ones :rolleyes:

 

2♥ on the first hand is clear: this is an unusual holding on the auction. The lack of a ♥ raise does not mean that much: LHO could have 6-7 cards and/or RHO has a 5=3=2=2 yarborough. But in any event, 3♣ fails to describe the playing strength: the hand is more than a full trick better in potential. 4♣ is a needless consumption of bidding space. 2♥ followed by ♣ is adequate: consider how you will feel if he bids 2N (great 18-20 hcp) :D

 

It is crucial that you play that a cue bid is forcing until a suit has been bid and raised (or game has ben reached). That simple agreement greatly simplifies the otherwise daunting task of bidding in takeout double sequences.

 

 

On the second hand, the 3♦ bid should, in my view, create a force.

 

I know that many players consider an analogous sequence (1♣ (2♥) 2♠) as not creating a game force. However, I trust that everybody considers 3♦ as a gf, in that opener cannot retreat to his suit below 3N.

 

This is important, because of how the partnership defines forcing passes. For me, the primary rule is the level to which our own bidding has forced. If 3♦ merely forced to 4♦, then 4♥ should not create a force on us. If 3♦ created a gf, then 4♥ is forcing, and we can pass and await developments.

 

I appreciate that most non-expert partnerships do not have coherent forcing pass agreements and that few partnerships, expert or otherwise, play precisely the same methods. So I am being a little presumptuous in this post B)

 

Given that we are in a forcing pass situation, I think it is close between pass and double but my 6 card ♣ suit suggests pass.

[Guest Jlall]

1) 4C. Couldn't imagine just bidding 3, which I would do if 2 of my clubs were spades.

 

2) Pass. I have nothing interesting to tell partner. Xing in front of him is not an option imo with Ax of hearts.

[000002]

reply 2nd question:

3♦ is forcing,but i don't think it will force to a game.

anyway,i suggest a cooperation double is better than pass in spite of forcing or not.the hand is very good to defend,and it's NOT a good hand to offend unless a ♣ contract.The 3♦ bidder has the most possibility to hold a 3262 shape,even if 2263, we have difficulty to bid 5♣

[zhs1971]

Thanks all!

I really learn a lot from your replies. :lol:

 

the first hand, partner hold:

♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦AKxx ♣Kx

 

when I bid 3♣, partner choose pass since he think he didn't sure whether 4♣ is safe if he cuebid 3♥.

Since the opener's heart suit is: AKJxxx, so, we play 3♣+1 while the other table play 3NT+2.

 

I think 2♥ is a good choice. After discuss with my partner, we decide to use following agreement:

3♣: usually without heart stopper;

2♥: cuebid then bid minor suit, forcing to 4♣, maybe have stopper;

if club suit length = 5 and weak stopper in heart, try to bid 2NT/3NT.

[zhs1971]

2nd hand：

 

PD hold: ♠Qxx ♥x ♦AKJ10x ♣KQxx

 

After the Forcing Pass, Partner will bid 6♣;

After the Dbl, Partner choose pass to play 4♥X;

 

while 6C make, 1370; 4HX -3, 800, 11imp swing.

[000002]

2nd hand：

 

PD hold:  ♠Qxx ♥x ♦AKJ10x ♣KQxx

 

After the Forcing Pass, Partner will bid 6♣;

After the Dbl, Partner choose pass to play 4♥X;

 

while 6C make, 1370;  4HX -3, 800, 11imp swing.

Good example to disclose that---when LHO don't raise 4♥, we will lose 6♣ verily .

especially opposite :

Ax(j)

Kxx

xx

Axxxxx

i believe that most of us will return to 5♣ even if opener take a little misty double.

the same auction will produce a huge distance,only base on whether 3♦ or T/O.

 

i doubt the reason to bid 3♦ replace T/O.

 

 

 

regards