doc_jo Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 [hv=d=w&v=b&n=sk10xhaq2dk98xcakx&s=sxh109876xda10xcjxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv] West : 4sp - N : X - E: passWhat should S bid in your opinion? Thanks Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I would pass, as I play that a double of 4S and above is for penalty. Not everyone plays this way, but I believe most ( at least in the U.S.) do. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 The standard meaning of double is "values." Partner is normally expected to leave it in with a fairly balanced hand, or to pull to a long suit with a lot of shape. The expectation is that it's extremely rare to have a trump stack after the 4♠ opening, so double shouldn't be "I have this beat, please pass" so much as "I have a good hand, I doubt they are making." The second meaning leaves a lot more leeway for partner to make the right decision. With that said, I think passing is probably best for south. The shape is okay for a 5♥ bid, but the heart suit isn't very good. Doubler could easily have only two hearts (double wasn't takeout after all) in which case 5♥ can go for a number with 4♠ not making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I'd probably bid 5♥ with the south hand. Too bad you already showed the North hand as well, because now people will be influenced by the possible result. That's why I said 'probably' ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I had passed with my std. pd, as his X had been penalties...Had not worked well this hand, okay, but so what?If it does not work well too often, we may change the meaning of the double. If double just show cards, it is tricky: Pd will have a kind of H fit, so you do not need much for the slam to make.Opposite the given North Hand, 5 H is more then enough, but I had problems to bid just 5 Heart, which I had done with xx,xxxxx,xxx,xxx too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyot Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I had passed with my std. pd, as his X had been penalties...Had not worked well this hand, okay, but so what?If it does not work well too often, we may change the meaning of the double. If double just show cards, it is tricky: Pd will have a kind of H fit, so you do not need much for the slam to make.Opposite the given North Hand, 5 H is more then enough, but I had problems to bid just 5 Heart, which I had done with xx,xxxxx,xxx,xxx too. Don't need much for the slam? You need a whole lot to make 5♥ :P. You're looking at 9 losers :-). LHO has promised long spades, nothing else. This increases the likelihood of RHO having most of the values your side is missing. I would gladly pass 4♠x and hope that partner can get 3 tricks along with my diamond ace. Even 5♥ might be a stretch if p has anything less than AKx in hearts. Typically Kjx(x) - meaning 2 hearts and one spade off right from the start :). What is his most likely shape? balanced, 2-3 spades. No ruffing power whatsoever (probably will need all his trumps to draw trumps, they're likely to be 6331.) If he has any decent 2-suiter, he'll bid 4NT - then 5♥ might be a good contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhs1971 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Although the 4SX is penalty, but it's often based on strong hand while not strong Spade. So, I will bid 5H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I play that doubles of 4S openings are "primarily for take-out, but partner may convert if his hand seems unsuitable for declaring at the 5 level". So I'd happily take this out to 5H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I play that doubles of 4S openings are "primarily for take-out, but partner may convert if his hand seems unsuitable for declaring at the 5 level". So I'd happily take this out to 5H I agree totally Alain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I agree totally Alain I've noticed a number of posts recently with people saying that. Maybe I'm finally getting better at this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I play that doubles of 4S openings are "primarily for take-out, but partner may convert if his hand seems unsuitable for declaring at the 5 level". So I'd happily take this out to 5H Yes, but playing this style, you should be disciplined and pass 4♠ with the North hand. It is hard to do, but I think you have to. Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Opposite the given North Hand, 5 H is more then enough, but I had problems to bid just 5 Heart, which I had done with xx,xxxxx,xxx,xxx too.Standard treatment with nothing is to pass: not to run. Thus no expert today would dream of pulling with your example hand. Bidding at the 5-level in this sequence shows an expectation of making: not a fear that they will make. This S hand is borderline, but I vote for a pass primarily because of the terrible suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 This one seems very close to me. Cannot say for sure what I would do at the table, but I'd like to hope that I would pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 close but i pass. partner X is optionnal. Saying he got enough pts to get a + score. I would prefer having ♣ instead of ♥ since partner can sometimes correct. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
000002 Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 In another post i had indicated that pulling out (to N level) ONLY when u hold a hand with N+1 offensive tricks. In this case it need 6trics to bid 5♥.pass for lack now,pls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Pass. A bid should be reserved for a hand where I expect to make what I bid and here 5H is too speculative. Winston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 PAss - obvoius best chance of pluss score. Partner averages a strong no-trump on these type of auctions. We rate to take 4-5 tricks on defence. We don't rate to take 11 in play. This will gain more often than it loses IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 PAss - obvoius best chance of pluss score. Partner averages a strong no-trump on these type of auctions. We rate to take 4-5 tricks on defence. We don't rate to take 11 in play. This will gain more often than it loses IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Pass hmmm let's see if "FTL" can help on this very tough hand.13=total tricks-4=estimated 2 shortest suits, guessing p is 2=4=4=3 shape+1=estimated working hcp of 22-24.13-4+1=10 tricks in our longest fit of hearts. Perhaps p is 2542 shape which is -3 for shape but only 21 working hcp for +0? In this case still only 10 tricks in hearts. Another way of looking at the hand is perhaps our poor hcp in hearts and duplicated spade values tip the hand to a pass? Close...I can see getting this one wrong at the table under pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 As my P and I play 4SX for penalty (4NT as 3 suit takeout) I trust my partner ans PASS :) Occasionally it may not work out but partnership trust is more important than one bad score ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 What I am wondering: how strong a balanced hand do you need to double 4♠? Let's assume a trump holding like this KTx, which most likely will be useless in offense. Above I claimed "you should be disciplined and pass 4♠ with the North hand" (repeated for convenience: ♠KTx ♥AQx ♦K98x ♣AKx). That seems like a huge overbid, if partner takes out with a useful distributional hand, you are expecting to make. Recently I had a good balanced 16-count, behind a 3rd seat white-vs-red 4♠ opener and doubled, since not doubling seemed riskier than doubling. But if partner had taken out, I would have felt bad. (He left it in, and we got 500.) And in other positions, I might have passed. What's your balanced borderline hand for this "takeout" double? Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.