signals

[sceptic]

when you discard from a suit and you want to show low for discouraging

 

example you dont want heart or diamond but you want a spade lead as hearts are in play (and you dont have a high spade to signal with)

 

do you discard the higher suit i.e. diamonds and this would imply the higher suit wanted? assuming no hints from dummies cards ( if that is possible)

[Stephen Tu]

If you aren't playing some sort of special odd/even or Lavinthal discard agreement, just standard signals/discards, then no, discouraging in a particular suit doesn't imply any of the other two suits.

 

Generally though, dummy/auction/previous play should be able to narrow down partner's options to only two logical shifts, then discouraging one should point him in the right direction. In the rare case this is not true, then you just have to hope that either (1) you have time to discourage both suits, or

(2) partner guesses right.

 

Now if you are playing odd/even or Lavinthal, then you can send two messages with one card, though suit preference is done by the size of the discard rather than which particular suit. It's bad to do it by the suit of the discard, because sometimes you just can't afford to discard from short suits. Doing it by size leaves more options since you can usually afford to discard from a long suit.

 

The disadvantage of odd/even / Lavinthal is that you can't really send a neutral signal (i.e. "I don't know what's right, but I don't have any help here"), as everything is encouraging one suit or another.

[paulg]

It's an interesting idea to make the suit discarded the suit preference signal when combined with a discouraging signal.

 

Although most of us feel that we only hold low cards, when this system would have value, in practice I feel that its value is probably quite low.

 

The cards you generally have available to discard are fairly limited and a single clear signal is often better than a less clear dual signal. Every discard system has its limitations and you will always find occasions when you do not an appropriate card.

 

I looked at what the top Italians use and it's all very simple - either low encouraging or odd encouraging (however these world-class players know so much about a hand that this is enough for them).

 

I advise keeping your discards simple and spend those precious brain cells on trying to visualise the hand based on the bidding and play to date.

 

Paul

[coyot]

The disadvantage of odd/even / Lavinthal is that you can't really send a neutral signal (i.e. "I don't know what's right, but I don't have any help here"), as everything is encouraging one suit or another.

This is not exactly true. The O/E discard scheme follows the following rules:

 

1) A 6 is not a signal unless it seems VERY likely it is the lowest/highest.

 

2) The priority of discards according to the "level" of encouraging is:

- low odd in preferred suit

- high odd in preferred suit

- even in another suit.

 

Also, high-odd followed by low-odd CANCELS the discouraging signal.

 

So, if you're in a discard position and you don't really want to encourage into any suit, try:

 

1) Looking for a 6 :-)

2) Looking for an even card that would encourage into obviously non-wanted suit

3) Looking for high-odd (9 is best) that can be followed by low-odd.

 

This really is the GOOD thing about the O/E signalling scheme - compared to classic Lavinthal you have a few more choices and distinctions in signalling.

[Rebound]

With my regular partners, we have an agreement such that an "impossible signal" for a suit previously shown to be one that lacks interest due either to the auction or play thus far indicates either inability to signal for what is actually preferred or the lack of anything useful to signal for, say a suit in which partner is known to be void or there is a tenace in dummy.

[david_c]

when you discard from a suit and you want to show low for discouraging

 

example you dont want heart or diamond but you want a spade lead as hearts are in play (and you dont have a high spade to signal with)

 

do you discard the higher suit i.e. diamonds and this would imply the higher suit wanted? assuming no hints from dummies cards ( if that is possible)

Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't seem to work: if you're discarding on a heart lead then a club and a spade both seem to ask for diamonds, but a diamond discard can't be read. You'd do better to make it "revolving".

 

But most of the time it doesn't matter that your low card is not specific about which suit is preferred. I would recommend you keep it that way.

[mike777]

when you discard from a suit and you want to show  low for discouraging

 

example you dont want heart or diamond  but you want a spade lead as hearts are in play (and you dont have a high spade to signal with)

 

do you discard the higher suit i.e. diamonds and this would imply the higher suit wanted? assuming no hints from dummies cards ( if that is possible)

If I understand with no special agreements a heart is played and you discard.

I assume partner looking at the bidding and dummy has 2 possible switch suits to choose, not 3 suits. Why not just play low in one of the possible switch suits. I would think your wanting the unusual third suit is too rare to worry about telling partner without special signals. Hopefully you can bang down a large card if you really need that third suit shift!

 

BTW I love playing suit preference in the trump suit. It is often possible but alas my partners rarely notice why I play 4 and then 2 rather than 2 and then 4 :).

[Al_U_Card]

BTW I love playing suit preference in the trump suit. It is often possible but alas my partners rarely notice why I play 4 and then 2 rather than 2 and then 4 :).

And , of course, that trump hi lo is an ask for a ruff in standard. It is, however, standard when you have shown a 3 card raise to pard to be able to show suit preference by the size of the card played.

[csdenmark]

when you discard from a suit and you want to show  low for discouraging

 

example you dont want heart or diamond  but you want a spade lead as hearts are in play (and you dont have a high spade to signal with)

 

do you discard the higher suit i.e. diamonds and this would imply the higher suit wanted? assuming no hints from dummies cards ( if that is possible)

Very difficult to use Lavinthal playing high/low signals. Looks like that is your problem.

 

Playing the italian standard signals odd=encourage, even=discourage I think your problems are solved simply by discouraging the suit you don't want. If that is 10 you dont want that suit but some other high suit, in this case spades. Playing instead 2 you call for clubs.

 

Else the easy solution is to discourage a suit dummy don't dont have(or known declarer don't holds) - then obvious you call the remaining one.