Unlucky or stupid?

[42]

Hi!

This hand was no success, one must be in 5♣. How would 2 experts bid? A ♥-cuebid leads to the same disaster, which leaves 3♦ and 3♠, or?

I am thankful for arguments!

[hv=d=e&v=b&n=s986hk5d932ck10765&s=skqjha98dacqj9432]133|200|Scoring: IMP

bidding:

pass pass 1♥ 2♣

pass 3♣ pass 3NT[/hv]

Caren

[cherdano]

I would put the blame on partner: I overcall 2♣, partner raises to 3♣, I bid 3♥ (don't like 3N so much, even if clubs run we may have only 8 top tricks, and after careful investigation I still haven't found a positional values in my hand), partner will bid 3N. Now I can pass and it's his/her fault :D

 

Joking aside, I think this would be my sequence. Tough for either side to know you are lacking the club ace (and hey, RHO may lead a heart!).

 

Arend

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont like the 3NT bid with the single

Ace of diamond, and I think 3H instead

of 3NT is better, because 3NT gambles on

9 running tricks, which implies partner

has a 2nd fast trick besides the Ace of

clubs.

3H will ensure that you have time to develop

another trick.

 

But then 3NT goes down because they have

the Ace of clubs, and this seems a bit unlucky

when holding 11 clubs.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[fbuijsen]

I think the 2C overcaller takes the blame. You can see in your hand that you probably need 9 running tricks to make 3NT, or otherwise the defenders will run their suit when in with a club.

This means that the 3NT bidder is gambling on partner having the ♣A and ♣K, or the opponents are making the wrong lead. That seems a bit too hopeful.

[42]

and hey, RHO may lead a heart!

Still only 8 tricks: 5♣s, 2♥s, 1♦. We are 1 tempo behind :D

[42]

I think the 2C overcaller takes the blame. You can see in your hand that you probably need 9 running tricks to make 3NT, or otherwise the defenders will run their suit when in with a club.

This means that the 3NT bidder is gambling on partner having the ♣A and ♣K, or the opponents are making the wrong lead. That seems a bit too hopeful.

Ok, thx :D So what would be YOUR bid after 3♣ and why?

[Guest Jlall]

If south bids 3H north will just bid 3N. You guys did fine, hard to always find 5 of a minor with every suit stopped and the suit the opps bid double stopped.

[cherdano]

If south bids 3H north will just bid 3N.

Yes, but still 3♥ looks like the better bid.

[Guest Jlall]

Yes, but still 3♥ looks like the better bid.

I agree, I just meant that 3N is hard to stay out of the way the auction began.

[cherdano]

and hey, RHO may lead a heart!

Still only 8 tricks: 5♣s, 2♥s, 1♦. We are 1 tempo behind :D

Well, I knew I couldn't count :)

[42]

and hey, RHO may lead a heart!

Still only 8 tricks: 5♣s, 2♥s, 1♦. We are 1 tempo behind :)

Well, I knew I couldn't count :(

Normal for a good mathematician (I know a lot of them :D ), so don't worry! And if you must have had to count to 13 (higher mathematics), you would have been successful, I am sure! ♥

[joker_gib]

I'd have bid 3♥ and pass over 3NT by partner

 

Alain

[mike777]

I am surprised no one considered bidding 4clubs, weak, over 2club overcall.

[P_Marlowe]

I am surprised no one considered bidding 4clubs, weak, over 2club overcall.

There is no reason to preempt, because openers partner

passed. ... And you know it cant be a trap pass,

so he is weak.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Guest Jlall]

I am surprised no one considered bidding 4clubs, weak, over 2club overcall.

beware 5332 (and the HK!)

[mikeh]

I think that S showed poor judgment here. 3N was silly: there is no hand with which 3N, by him, rates to make, given that partner merely raised ♣. Give him AK♣ and S still needs him to hold the ♠A or the ♦K or an unlikely ♥ holding: the odds are very high that he would have bid 2♥ rather than 3♣.

 

So what is S to do? He must bid, and I think that 3♥ is the logical call.

 

Over to North: He almost has to bid 3N. Give his partner the same values (or a little more) with AJ of♣ and Kxx of ♠ and 3N is fine.

 

So 3N by North.

 

Now back to S. He has heard an unexpected call from partner: partner has a ♥ stopper as well as a ♣ fit. Here the problem is that S could well logically play N to hold shorter ♣ and something useful in ♦: say xxx Kx Q10xx Kxxx, and now 3N is okay.

 

That hand, of course, is equally good for 5♣, but what about: xx Q10x Kxxx Kxxx? Admittedly a careful construction but 5♣ is hopeless on a ♥ lead while 3N has a very good play.

 

So I think that 3N is a reasonable contract, outside of a bidding contest, and you just shrug and call for the next board.

[hotShot]

Looking at the south hand only, there are 5 looser (2♣ , 2♥ and 1♠) and south needs to exit 3 times (♠ and 2♣) to develope the ♣ and ♠ tricks.

To make 3NT, the number of stoppers in the lead suit is: number of exits + 1, if opps lead the weak suit, and follow it each time they are at trick.

In this case south needs north to reduce the number of exits. Since the weakest suit is ♦, with ony one stopper, the number of exits must be reduced to 0. This is only possible if north hold AK♣ or A and the K is with west or single with east.

Otherwise north needs to bring a stopper in ♦ and ♥ and K♣.

So the chances for making 3NT are too small, to bid it as north needs to have maximun and the right cards.

 

How to bid over 3♣? Well pass is an option, otherwise it is 3♥ of cause followed by 3NT from north.

Now south knows that they have 2 stopper in ♥, ♠ and ♦, if playing ♣. So if north has one of ♣AK there is a good chance to make 5.

[fbuijsen]

I think the 2C overcaller takes the blame. You can see in your hand that you probably need 9 running tricks to make 3NT, or otherwise the defenders will run their suit when in with a club.

This means that the 3NT bidder is gambling on partner having the ♣A and ♣K, or the opponents are making the wrong lead. That seems a bit too hopeful.

Ok, thx :) So what would be YOUR bid after 3♣ and why?

It's hard to say, because seeing both hands it quickly becomes just resulting.

But since my hand is a total maximum, I even have visions of slam, and have sufficient faith in 5♣. I expect at least one club honor with partner.

 

I think I'd try a 4♦ cuebid. I guess partner would bid 5♣ or 4♥ on that.

Over 4♥ I'd bid 5♣, hoping that makes it clear to partner I need the ♠A.

 

But it's much easier seeing both hands :P

[42]

This discussion is very useful!

Nobody here would dbl instead of bidding 2♣ with the S hand? One of my friends would and in his opinion the bidding would go on:

pass pass 1♥ dbl

pass 2♣ pass 2♥

pass 2NT pass 3♠

pass 5♣ end.

Since 2♣ shows 11 to ...hm 17 bad (??): is the 3♣ raise an invitation or just a bid to make life harder for opener? All are red.

By the way: I was silly S. I must admit that I sometimes bid according to my feeling (please don't flame me for that! I still have partners that I don't pay :P ) In this case I must also admit that I didn't think until the bitter end: which honours exactly does partner really need to have that we succeed in 3NT. This imagination is a tough problem for me.

Perhaps I was hoping to transmit the message: I have a maximum overcall with stoppers everywhere, are your clubs fine? Or so... I will ask my psychiatrist. Perhaps he has also a recipe (or pills) how I can get rid of wishful thinking....

[mikeh]

This discussion is very useful!

Nobody here would dbl instead of bidding 2♣ with the S hand? One of my friends would and in his opinion the bidding would go on:

pass pass 1♥ dbl

pass 2♣ pass 2♥

pass 2NT pass 3♠

pass 5♣ end.

Since 2♣ shows 11 to ...hm 17 bad (??): is the 3♣ raise an invitation or just a bid to make life harder for opener? All are red.

By the way: I was silly S. I must admit that I sometimes bid according to my feeling (please don't flame me for that! I still have partners that I don't pay :P ) In this case I must also admit that I didn't think until the bitter end: which honours exactly does partner really need to have that we succeed in 3NT. This imagination is a tough problem for me.

Perhaps I was hoping to transmit the message: I have a maximum overcall with stoppers everywhere, are your clubs fine? Or so... I will ask my psychiatrist. Perhaps he has also a recipe (or pills) how I can get rid of wishful thinking....

Your friend's auction is absurd: you have him doubling, cue-bidding and then bidding 3♠. As far as I am concerned, that shows the equivalent of a (good) strong 2♣ opening bid based on a great ♠ suit: remember that the 2♣ response to the double could be on xxx xxx xxx xxxx (or if you bid 1♠ with that, xx xxxx xxx xxxx), so 2♥ is a force (2♠ would not be) and then you show your forcing 3♠ bid.

[fbuijsen]

This discussion is very useful!

Nobody here would dbl instead of bidding 2♣ with the S hand? One of my friends would and in his opinion the bidding would go on:

pass pass 1♥ dbl

pass 2♣ pass 2♥

pass 2NT pass 3♠

pass 5♣ end.

Since 2♣ shows 11 to ...hm 17 bad (??): is the 3♣ raise an invitation or just a bid to make life harder for opener? All are red.

Your hand is a maximum 2C overcall to me. It would be a dbl, but the poor quality of the club suit makes me decide for an overcall.

 

Your friend's auction is a fine case of resulting with both hands in sight.

Double is acceptabel, and you would get something like (after the dbl):

2♣ 2♥

2NT 3NT

 

after that.

 

I play the 3♣ raise as a positive bid, roughly 7-10 HCP and at least 3 clubs.

On the N hand here, 3♣ is a bit tame, but OK.

[han]

The hand is heavy for 2C, but I would certainly not double. Double followed by an overcall shows a significantly stronger hand for me.

 

3C is not invitational, with a true invitation you can cuebid.

 

I think that most bridge players would not think too much and just bid 3NT over 3C. I might have done the same.. hard to say now.. but after reading this thread it is entirely clear why 3NT is wrong. As usual it is best to turn the automatic pilot off and try to visualise possible hands for partner.

 

BTW 3NT doesn't send much of a message in this auction besides "I think that we should play here". Partner is not expected to pull this unless she has a very unusual hand. Most bids show something about your hand and ask for input from partner. 3NT usually doesn't.

[cherdano]

This discussion is very useful!

Nobody here would dbl instead of bidding 2♣ with the S hand? One of my friends would

I am not surprised :P In my never-ending quest to find out differences American and German bidding, one of the few things I believe to have found out that Germans still believe in doubling rather than bidding their suit with one-suited 17-18 hcp hands.

 

It is a style issue, and I am pretty certain no American expert would even consider a double, while perhaps many in Germany would. It's a style issue of course, and I won't take a stab at making a claim which style is better.

 

Having said that, I don't understand the double here. This is a bad 17 hcp hand, and the overcall would be vulnerable at IMPs at the 2-level, which already shows a decent hand.

 

Arend

[han]

Your friend's auction is a fine case of resulting with both hands in sight.

Double is acceptabel, and you would get something like (after the dbl):

2♣ 2♥

2NT 3NT

 

after that.

This auction is almost as bad as 42's friend's auction. 6-card club support.. isn't that worth showing?

 

Although I really don't like the initial double, a possible auction could be:

 

(1H) - Dbl - 2C

4C - 5C

 

Double followed by a cuebid is a gros overbid, and tells partner nothing about the club support.

[mike777]

Heck if you cannot bid 4c with the North hand ...how about...pass ......