cherdano Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Vul vs not at IMPs, partner opened a weak 2♥ in second seat, and RHO overcalls 3♦. I hadn't played much with this partner before, but I could assume sane preempts from what I had seen. I held ♠AKQ7xx ♥J ♦A9 ♣87xx and bid 4♥. Sick? Insane? Reasonable? Normal? (Don't worry, there is no story of a debate behind this, it just seemed to myself I was taking a view with 4♥ and interested in opinions.) Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 OK by me. At this seat and vulnerability, pd should have 6 tricks, and you have 4. Maybe you get killed in clubs, but you have to bid game, especially vul at IMPs, and I like 4H better than 3NT. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 I'm not particularly found of a 4♥ bid. Partner has a 6 card heart suit. This is all fine and dandy. However, RHO overcalled and he certainly doesn't look to be holding that strong a hand. I have a sinking suspicion that RHO is short in Hearts which means that partner has a couple trump losers in a heart contract. Personally, I think that our best best for a plus score is to pass and hope that LHO bids 3NT or some such. 3♠ strikes me as reasonable. I might even bid 3NT. but not 4♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 4H isn't silly at all.I would bid 3S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blofeld Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Not stupid. I probably wouldn't have the guts, so would pick 3♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miron Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Maybe 3/4♠ is a good try, you need just three tricks from partner. I wouldn't bid 4♥, if they double ... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyot Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Agree. In 2nd place, partner's preempt has 50% of preempting you and 50% of preempting the opponents, which is one more reason for a good preempt. Noone I know would bid red vs. white for 3 down. I would expect partner to have something like AQ10xxx or KQ10xxx in hearts and some good side values (i.e. KQ or QJx). Of course it could turn out a disaster if you have 9card spade fit, the heart suit is far from solid and they hit you with diamond lead, but it's worth the risk, and certainly better than telling opps about your spades first :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Hi, I prefer spades, 2H maybe sound,but does sound mean, partners suit is as good as my spade suit or thatall of partners honors are located in hearts? I would probably bid 4S. Marlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Btw, just making sure -- I assume everyone expects 3♠ to be forcing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Btw, just making sure -- I assume everyone expects 3♠ to be forcing? ... I would not be that sure with my regular partner. I believe, it would be forcing for him. Marlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 I'll vote for sick :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Master-minding. You can't know if the correct contract is 4♥/4♠ or even slam (partner could have Jxx AKQTxx xxx x for instance. 4♥ ends the discussion with partner. It not sure you will ever be able to reach 6♠ on the example hand, but you could be struggling in 4♥ with 4♠ cold. I would bid 3♠. But to be fair, there are some hands partner might raise a FORCING 3S to 4S that would play better in hearts. Still 4♥ ends the dialogue when you really have no idea if it is the right call. Certainly i would force to game, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 If you must punt at this point (I would not), why not bid 3♠ en route? "I assume everyone expects 3♠ to be forcing?", you ask. Definitely, how else can responder make opener bid again? The only bid that's non forcing is 3♥; that is merely competitive. Letting 3♠ be non forcing is silly in my opinion. Don't go for a better partscore after a pre-empt. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 I'll vote for sick :DI knew I could trust you :) My main reason for choosing 4♥ over 3♠ has hardly been mentioned yet: This hand may all be about avoiding a club lead. (Imagine partner with x KQTxxx xxx xxx.) About hearts vs spades as trumps: Obviously we prefer a 6-3 spade fit over a 6-1 heart fit. With a 6-2 spade fit I am not so sure, we may never get a heart trick if partner doesn't have ♥A. Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 My main reason for choosing 4♥ over 3♠ has hardly been mentioned yet: This hand may all be about avoiding a club lead. (Imagine partner with x KQTxxx xxx xxx.) I don't buy that. LHO is unlikely to have ♣AK after RHO's overcall at the 3-level with no ♦A. You will almost always get a diamond lead against a spade contract. What is more likely, however, is that RHO has ♣AK (if the club honours are not divided). Avoiding spades because one is afraid of a club lead on this auction is masterminding. Finally, if KQ10xxx in hearts and out is what you expect 2nd in hand vul against not, then I can understand your fear. Maybe you can have as little as that with your partners, I don't know. I would expect more. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 My main reason for choosing 4♥ over 3♠ has hardly been mentioned yet: This hand may all be about avoiding a club lead. (Imagine partner with x KQTxxx xxx xxx.) I don't buy that. LHO is unlikely to have ♣AK after RHO's overcall at the 3-level with no ♦A. You will almost always get a diamond lead against a spade contract. What is more likely, however, is that RHO has ♣AK (if the club honours are not divided). Avoiding spades because one is afraid of a club lead on this auction is masterminding. Roland I was worried about a club lead against 4♥. I think it is more likely after having bid 3♠. (Imagine RHO looking at ♠xxx, ♦KQ and ♣AQ.) If partner raises to 4♠, he rates to be short in clubs, at least unlikely to have xxx, so in that case I doubt the lead matters much (unless it is about killing dummy's entry). Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 (Imagine partner with x KQTxxx xxx xxx.) How can your partner make 4♥ if he has that hand, on any lead? I can only count 9 tricks: 5 hearts, 3 spades and 1 diamond. If this is what you play him for, you should have bid 3♥. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 I vote for silly (maybe a stronger word would occur to me at the table :) ) 3♠ is so clearly correct that any other bid has to be silly or worse. As for the notion that 3♠ is non-forcing: that is even sillier than not bidding 3♠. As for the notion that you don't want a ♣ lead, well, the arguments are getting sillier by the moment. Absent the AK♣ on your left (and as Roland points out, that is impossible), you are getting a ♦ lead (except when LHO is void in the suit :D ). 3♠ preserves both likely games: 3N would be ridiculous, so the likely games are in a major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhare Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Hmm..., 3♠ seems seems to be pretty clear -- committing to game contract in a 6-1 fit w/ a good, but hardly solid trump suit seems premature to say the least... Atul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 I vote for silly (maybe a stronger word would occur to me at the table :) ) 3♠ is so clearly correct that any other bid has to be silly or worse. As for the notion that 3♠ is non-forcing: that is even sillier than not bidding 3♠. As for the notion that you don't want a ♣ lead, well, the arguments are getting sillier by the moment. Absent the AK♣ on your left (and as Roland points out, that is impossible), you are getting a ♦ lead (except when LHO is void in the suit :D ). 3♠ preserves both likely games: 3N would be ridiculous, so the likely games are in a major. Mike, I think you share the confusion with Roland that it is RHO who is on lead against 4♥. (Other than that, I don't mind your strong words.) Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 I vote for silly (maybe a stronger word would occur to me at the table :) ) 3♠ is so clearly correct that any other bid has to be silly or worse. As for the notion that 3♠ is non-forcing: that is even sillier than not bidding 3♠. As for the notion that you don't want a ♣ lead, well, the arguments are getting sillier by the moment. Absent the AK♣ on your left (and as Roland points out, that is impossible), you are getting a ♦ lead (except when LHO is void in the suit :D ). 3♠ preserves both likely games: 3N would be ridiculous, so the likely games are in a major. Mike, I think you share the confusion with Roland that it is RHO who is on lead against 4♥. (Other than that, I don't mind your strong words.) Arend Which confusion? Isn't it my RHO who is on lead against 4♥ or did they change the rules? And I am not confused at all. When my RHO is on lead against 4♥ with ♦KQ and ♣AQ as you suggested, do you really think that he would lead ♣A whether I have bid 3♠ or not? And when my LHO is on lead against a spade contract, he will surely lead a diamond unless he has ♣AK, and that is virtually impossible. You still haven't told us how your partner is going to make 4♥ (on any lead) if KQ10xxx in hearts and out is what you play him for. That's what you imagine, you said. In another thread (by Caren), you claimed that you can't count. Isn't that the fact in this context too? Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 You still haven't told us how your partner is going to make 4♥ (on any lead) if KQ10xxx in hearts and out is what you play him for. That's what you imagine, you said. In another thread (by Caren), you claimed that you can't count. Isn't that the fact in this context too? Just for you, I will make it x KQT9xxx xx xxx since you have told before you hate weak 2s with 7 cards :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 You still haven't told us how your partner is going to make 4♥ (on any lead) if KQ10xxx in hearts and out is what you play him for. That's what you imagine, you said. In another thread (by Caren), you claimed that you can't count. Isn't that the fact in this context too? Just for you, I will make it x KQT9xxx xx xxx since you have told before you hate weak 2s with 7 cards :P Excellent, and don't you think that your partner would be capable of rebidding 4♥ over 3♠ with that hand? Seriously, were you not afraid that 3♠ would be passed? Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Excellent, and don't you think that your partner would be capable of rebidding 4♥ over 3♠ with that hand? Seriously, were you not afraid that 3♠ would be passed? RolandYes I would expect him to bid 4♥, RHO to lead a club, and go down.No I was not afraid he would pass 3♠, the thought that 3♠ could be passed didn't occur to me until I read Miron's post above which could be misinterpreted as 3♠ being a game try. Roland please shut up, thanks. Calling my bids sick or masterminding or whatever is absolutely ok. But wild claims about partnership trust from such a thread, or other insults, are unacceptable. Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Roland please shut up, thanks. Calling my bids sick or masterminding or whatever is absolutely ok. But wild claims about partnership trust from such a thread, or other insults, are unacceptable. Arend Some would treat "shut up" as considerably more insulting than anything I have said in this thread. And don't you think that putting a "please" first makes it any better. However, I am not sensitive and therefore not offended. As far as I'm concerned, you can make sick bids or mastermind all you like. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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