Partner opens 1 club & RHO bids 1NT

[jdeegan]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=sk107hqj974d87cq63]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♣-1NT-????[/hv]

Playing IMP pairs using SAYC with a reliable partner, early in the session.

 

Your call?

[Guest Jlall]

Pass, I'm happy to defend and no reason to think I have a fit. X is not my kind of bid.

[Finch]

Double opposite a sound opening bidder, pass otherwise.

[Finch]

I've just seen Justin's answer.

 

I don't play a great deal of IMP pairs, but my immediate reaction was to pass at MP pairs and double at IMPs. I believe I defend better than the field (don't we all?) so I don't mind defending 1NT undoubled at MPs if it's going off, and I don't want to concede 180.

 

However, I would say that 1NT usually rates to go off. The HCP are at worst equally split between the sides but ours are more evenly split and we have the advantage of the lead (what I lead depends on system, in particular partner's likelihood of having real clubs).

 

So if the equally likely results are 2 off, 1 off, making, +1 I am converting (+200, +100, -90, -120) into (+500, +200, -180, -380) which seems a good deal to me (particularly as I think an overtrick is not equally probably to the other results).

 

Partner is allowed to pull our double.

 

The real downsides of doubleing are that they redouble (unlikely given our HCP) or that we push them into a 4-4 spade fit they weren't going to find anyway. If responder pulls to a minor we might play in a major suit partial which could also be an improvement.

 

I think it comes down to what partner considers to be a 1st in vul opening bid. I've mentioned before I'm a sound opening bidder and it affects the rest of my bidding on hands such as this one.

 

p.s. in spite of writing an essay on this I don't feel very strongly about it, and would probably pass over 40% of the time at the table.

[Guest Jlall]

Pushing them to 2D is a real possibility. Are we then in a forcing pass if LHO bids 2D? I think so. So we will balance with 2H assuming partner doesn't X, but if we hit a fit he will often raise. We may X and bid 2H with an 11 count as well, so it will be hard for him not to raise sometimes. If we don't hit a fit, maybe I would have preferred to be defending 1N.

 

I agree with your likely scenarios defending 1N (I am also a sound opener). If I was sure it would go all pass, I would X. Maybe my agreements of penalty Xs and forcing pass after Xing 1N are outdated. But my main concern is turning a plus score into a minus score. Admittedly I am not penalty oriented enough.

[mikeh]

pass

 

2 points re a double.

 

Many (most?) pairs have a runout available in this auction, should you double. That runout will usually get them to 2♦, and the auction strongly suggests an 8 card fit for them, and quite likely a 9 card fit. I would far rather defend 1N than 2♦. Of course, if I did double, I would be committed to bidding 2♥ over 2♦.

 

The second point is linked to the first: even tho I would prefer to defend 1N as opposed to 2♦, I actually do not think much of our chances of defeating either contract. That missing ♦ suit worries me. I would expect to defeat 1N 60% of the time and to defeat 2♦ 25% of the time (or less).

 

I should qualify all of this by stating that I am assuming that partner would open 1♦ with 4=4 in the minors: I know by now that this is (for reasons that still baffle me) far from universal. If partner is a 1♣ opener on 4=4. then I have less reason to worry, but (since 1♣ does not PROMISE 4♦) I would still pass for the same reasons.

 

BTW, at the risk of generating an entirely new series of 'off-topic" posts, how does everyone play the sequence 1♣ (1N) x 2♦ (to play, let's assume) P (P)?

 

Or an equivalent where LHO, say, redoubles and pulls a forced 2♣ to 2♦ or perpetrates some similar rescue.

 

Did your double create a force on your side? How high? Can they play 2♦ undoubled? If not, can they play 2♠ undoubled? Would a 2♥ bid by you, after 2♦ comes around to you, be forcing? If not, do you have a force available? Would double of 2♦ by either partner be takeout, penalty or 'do something intelligent'?

[awm]

I'd double here, but I tend to play somewhat non-mainstream methods after the double. When opponents run, I prefer subsequent doubles to be takeout. Methods like lebensohol apply. This makes it less likely that I would end in a bad game; if opponents run to diamonds and partner doubles, then I can bid 2♥ and we will play there most likely (this 2♥ is around 8 to a bad 10 and could be based on a four-bagger). If partner passes 2♦ then I will double, and partner can convert with some shape like 2-2-4-5 or 3-1-4-5 (each of which we would routinely open 1♣ in my partnerships). If the opponents actually have a big diamond fit and partner is minimum, it is not particularly clear that we are setting 1NT, and most likely we would be better off to find ourselves a partial to play in. If the opponents don't have a good fit we may be getting a big number here. If we chase them into a 4-3 fit which neither of us can manage to takeout double, then there's still a reasonable chance they will go down more at the two-level than they would in 1NT. The only real bad case is where they figure out to "leave the double in" and happen to make 1NT, but as others have mentioned this is not all that likely.

[jdeegan]

:) Partner is 'reliable' and relatively sound. He did, however, open the bidding with:

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sqj6hdqj52caj9872]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Suppose it goes 1♣-1NT-Pass-Pass back to you? Are you a passenger here?

 

How about 1♣-1NT-Dbl-Pass back to you?

 

Or as it went on the actual hand, 1♣-1NT-2♥(ugh)-Pass back to you.

[benlessard]

Double i like my Q♣ and the ♠T and my Q♥lead

 

 

And i wont bid 2h over 2d.

 

 

But even if i do bid 2h

I dont think partner should raise you too often when hes got an 15-18 overcall to his left. and i do think that playing forcing pass there is outdated but at least you had agreements wich is better then 99% of the partnership.

 

 

IMHO the 2 main pts are

 

1---can we set them 500 ? or more in (1nt or in 2d or 2s.)

 

2---can they got down in 1nt but make 2d/ wich is trading a + for a minus. (reaching and making 2s in 4-4 fit while 1nt was going down is very unlikely ).

 

 

Both case is yes but i think case 1 is more likely so I X

 

 

Im not expecting 500 often but once in a while is enough because i stand to loose little. I think they ll go down is 2d or 2s.

 

 

im not afraid of 1nt X making (only 90 pts swing) or XX to play (its never happens.)

 

im surely not afraid of doubled overtricks.

 

 

 

 

 

Partner is allowed to pull our double.

 

 

???????

 

only if i was psyching i would pull the double. IMHO this is the most penalty oriented X you can make.... i never seen or met anybody who doesnt play this 100% penalty.

 

 

Of course if partner is a LTC addict and open all shapely 10 pts then X is out of the question but for sound semi sound opening bid x is my bid.

 

 

Also do you play open best minor ?

 

AQx Kx J9xx ATxx

 

this is a 1♣ opening for me.

 

 

 

 

 

Ben

[Guest Jlall]

:( Partner is 'reliable' and relatively sound. He did, however, open the bidding with:

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sqj6hdqj52caj9872]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Suppose it goes 1♣-1NT-Pass-Pass back to you? Are you a passenger here?

 

How about 1♣-1NT-Dbl-Pass back to you?

 

Or as it went on the actual hand, 1♣-1NT-2♥(ugh)-Pass back to you.

If it went 1C 1N p p to me I would simply sell out. My hand scares me and the risk of going for a number is real since partner is pretty much marked with 5+ hearts.

 

1C 1N X p to me I would pass. I can't pull unless i have a wild distributional hand (or have psyched).

 

1C 1N 2H pass I would pass. We aren't Xed yet :)

[Kalvan14]

• 1C-(1N): I'd double. We have the majority of the points, a natural attractive lead in hearts
  
• 1C-(1N)-X-(P): with the posted hand I would pull to 2C. Nothing to be ashamed of, I'd open this hand: OTOH, it's not the right hand to defend 1NX
  
• 1C-(1N)-X-(2D)-P-(P): I'd balance with 2H
  
• Pard would not open a marginal hand 1st to bid and vuln; however he might open a light distributional hand (and in such a case I'd expect to pull). I'd be the most surprised person in the world if it were a psyche.
  

[Finch]

Many (most?) pairs have a runout available in this auction, should you double. That runout will usually get them to 2♦, and the auction strongly suggests an 8 card fit for them, and quite likely a 9 card fit. I would far rather defend 1N than 2♦. Of course, if I did double, I would be committed to bidding 2♥ over 2♦.

Yes. But if they have a diamond fit, why should 2H be worse for us than defending 1NT?

 

Did your double create a force on your side?

Yes

How high? Can they play 2♦ undoubled? If not, can they play 2♠ undoubled?

They can play 2♥ and above undoubled, not 2♦

 

Would a 2♥ bid by you, after 2♦ comes around to you, be forcing? If not, do you have a force available?

No. Jumps are forcing, as as a cue bid, but you would usually double (see next answer).

 

Would double of 2♦ by either partner be takeout, penalty or 'do something intelligent'?

Take-out, usually with a doubleton (a hand partner is happy for you to pass with a penalty double). That answers the above question: with any good hand prepared to defend 2D I double 2D; failing that I am likely to have a good hand with singleton or void diamond and cue bid.

[joshs]

:P  Partner is 'reliable' and relatively sound.  He did, however, open the bidding with:

Dealer: South Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ QJ6 ♥ [space] ♦ QJ52 ♣ AJ9872

Suppose it goes 1♣-1NT-Pass-Pass back to you?  Are you a passenger here?

 

How about 1♣-1NT-Dbl-Pass back to you?

 

Or as it went on the actual hand, 1♣-1NT-2♥(ugh)-Pass back to you.

If it went 1C 1N p p to me I would simply sell out. My hand scares me and the risk of going for a number is real since partner is pretty much marked with 5+ hearts.

 

1C 1N X p to me I would pass. I can't pull unless i have a wild distributional hand (or have psyched).

 

1C 1N 2H pass I would pass. We aren't Xed yet :)

Well, if you were a solid citizen such as myself who hasn't psyched in 1/2 seat in 10 years (I am setting you up for the next time we play!), you might decided that the heart void and 6-4 shape and high card min gives you good cause to rebid 2C as your best guess as to how to go plus. But then again, I like to x 1N overcalls agressively. I don't know, I don't think the pull of the x on hands with a good rebid, less than sound HCP and a void is that abnormal. But maybe thats just me.... Now if the argument is that the club suit isn't strong enough to rebid (or partner's opening leads suck!), well thats another matter.

[jdeegan]

:P Thanks for all the commentary! It turns out that the North hand is considered to be right on the boundary line between Dbl and Pass - 50% for each action. The choice likely depends on one's estimate of pard's orangutanic tendencies as first chair opening bidder. Panelists also seem divided on the matter of South's bidding 2 ♣ after partner passes or doubles.

 

For what it's worth,

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sktxhqj97xdxxcqxx&w=sxxxxhaktxdakcktx&e=saxxh8xxxdt9xxxcx&s=sqjxhdqjxxcaj98xx]399|300|Scoring: IMP

1♣-1NT-Dbl-Pass-Pass-Pass[/hv]

 

A double followed by a pass from North gets the magic +200 (probably). If North starts the Q of ♥ on opening lead, then West can win and play back a heart. North must win and force West to win the second round of clubs.

[Guest Jlall]

200 is not magic at imps. It's win 3 vs 100.