Do you balance at IMPS ?

[Free]

I Dbl

[ochinko]

I balance with 2♠. It may seem like a gamle, but has some benefits:

 

1. If that turns out to be the final contract, the lead would be from their stronger hand. Partner is unlikely to bid 2♠ with QJx if I double.

 

2. You don't scare them off to compete in 3♥, unaware of the bad heart break. They know they have a heart fit, and could well rise.

 

Most of the time partner will have four hearts, pass, and even the best defense is not certain to set them. Even if we do, we score 100, but if we don't, we score -670. 2♠ -1 NV doesn't scare me even if doubled. By bidding 2♠ I avoid a disaster while giving opps a chance to make a mistake.

[Fluffy]

What you need is a bit more specific agreemnets on what a balancing double should have on similar auctions. IMO your partner expected too much from you on this deal and the double is ok. But others might agree otherwise, just train your partnership :)

[Winstonm]

I respectfully disagree.  When the auction begins P-1C-P-1H, you are between two unlimited opponents who have not shown a fit and both know you don't have enough to open the bidding and also know your partner could not overcall 1C or make a takeout double.  Stepping in here without excellent compensating shape is much riskier than when the opponents' have announced a fit (the 2H raise) and then showed limited values by not trying for game.  Also, the 2H raise has a much higher chance of being based on a 4-card raise than a 3-card raise as most pairs would still bid 1S with 4324 or 4315 patterns.  If on the given hand you caught partner with the same shape but 0-6 hcp and LHO redoubled it could get bloody even in 1S doubled.

 

Winston

May I respectfully question your respectful disagreement? lol - I love these discussions: I learn a lot from them.

 

IMO, I guess there are two ways to look at this. On the given bidding sequence, the opps have found a fit but have also bid approximately to their limit, i.e.: they have already determined about how high and in what strain they are going to bid. To balance now is sort of like giving a fielder's choice because the partner has somewhat limited itself. Yet it seems automatic at matchpoints.

 

Should one decide to compete earlier by of bidding directly over the 1H response, yes, both opps are as yet unlimited, but now they have neither determined how high or in what strain their partnership should be playing the hand. Yes, that could result in an occasional big number (not vul), but the opps might determine that they won;t collect a large enough penalty and continue bidding. In addition, there are hands where partner can have reasonable values and still not have a bid over 1 Club by opps.

 

It's late and I know that my personal preference is to get in quickly when I have the right shape. I shall wait and listen to more feedback, and learn.

 

DHL

 

ps: still wish I had a pair of Luis' sunglasses. Makes these decisions so much easier!!!

I'm with you in that I prefer to get in quickly but there are times when it is not safe to do so and it also sends the wrong message. In the given auction, as third seat I would expect a 2-suit double by a passed hand to be 5152 or 5251 and would strongly compete with a 4-card holding in either suit. I'm not a big fan of balancing but sometimes you have to get in there and fight for the partscore, especially after the auctions of 1C-2C, 1D-2D and 1H-2H.

 

When the auction begins: p-1c-p-1H-p-2H-p-p, you can be assured that your side holds between 18 and 22 HCP; however, when it begins p-1C-p-1H, whatever is in your hand may be your side's total assets.

 

Winston

[Double !]

I'm with you in that I prefer to get in quickly but there are times when it is not safe to do so and it also sends the wrong message. In the given auction, as third seat I would expect a 2-suit double by a passed hand to be 5152 or 5251 and would strongly compete with a 4-card holding in either suit. I'm not a big fan of balancing but sometimes you have to get in there and fight for the partscore, especially after the auctions of 1C-2C, 1D-2D and 1H-2H.

 

When the auction begins: p-1c-p-1H-p-2H-p-p, you can be assured that your side holds between 18 and 22 HCP; however, when it begins p-1C-p-1H, whatever is in your hand may be your side's total assets.

 

Winston

Interesting

 

Don't I have other bids available at this point to show 5-5 hands at this point, including 1NT?

IMO, a dbl would tend to show closer to the traditional shape of a double, and a NT bid or some other 2-suited bid (a cue or something)?

 

I would also prefer to compete early because I have the master suit - spades.

 

It really seems to me that this is a matter of personal preference, partnership agreements, and what other bids you have available.

 

have a nice one

DHL

[Winstonm]

Don't I have other bids available at this point to show 5-5 hands at this point, including 1NT?

IMO, a dbl would tend to show closer to the traditional shape of a double, and a NT bid or some other 2-suited bid (a cue or something)?

 

IMO, the significant issue is that you are a passed hand - while you can assign meanings to 1N and cue bid, is it really of value to do so when the only hand you would really like to compete with would be 5/5 or maybe if aggressive 5/4. If that is the case, you can do this with double and still have the safety net of the 1-level in spades: no other bid gives you this safer haven.

 

As a non-passed hand it makes sense to separate distribution with double and cue and even 1N if you like.

 

Anyway, that's how I view this situation for what it is worth.

 

Winston

[mcphee]

I would have gotten in a round before but do not think you did something horrible. Perhaps your partner ended up being annoyed due to the misdefence. I think passing the balancing dble with this hand was misjudged. These is far too much to lose and the one trick set is not my idea of an imps dble of a partscore. I would pass this double at pairs, but would need a few more drinks to pass at imps.

[Chamaco]

Perhaps your partner ended up being annoyed due to the misdefence.

No absolutely.

This player- despite strong - is a very pleasant person and usually he never shows signs of irritation even when I commit some bad mistakes.

The same happened here.

 

The one and only reason why I posted the question was that the fact that if a real expert (not BBO expert) had been ready to pass this double, perhaps other stronmg players would do that, and, in this case, I had probably to listen and learn, perhaps reconsidering my previous view about such balancing situations.

[han]

I agree with both Don and Winston here.

 

Certainly as a passed hand I have other bids available that show 5-5 shape, I would not require more than 4-4 for the double. If the hand was a bit stronger (same shape but more stuff in the unbid suits) then I would expect a near unanimous vote for the direct double of 1♥.

 

On the other hand, entering is riskier and (not sure this has been mentioned) may give declarer essential information later. I'm actually not so worried about going for a big number in 1S NV against V.

[Winstonm]

I agree with both Don and Winston here.

 

Certainly as a passed hand I have other bids available that show 5-5 shape, I would not require more than 4-4 for the double. If the hand was a bit stronger (same shape but more stuff in the unbid suits) then I would expect a near unanimous vote for the direct double of 1♥.

 

On the other hand, entering is riskier and (not sure this has been mentioned) may give declarer essential information later. I'm actually not so worried about going for a big number in 1S NV against V.

Han brings up a good point that no one else has mentioned and it sways my bidding; when you are constantly getting involved with weakish hands with little hopes of outbidding the opponents, you are giving declarer lots of information on how to play the hand - unlesss you believe you can find a fit and either outbid your opponents or find a useful sacrifice IMO this weak "noise" that so many espouse does little good and can do quite a bit of harm and should be avoided unless it has some distinct purpose. I can't see the argument as calling it "prebalance" as neither opponent has limited his hand - this is much different than the auction 1h-p-2h-X as prebalance as RHO is now limited and this indeed can be used as prebalance. I'm also with Han in that I would not be overly concerned about going for a number in 1S doubled, which is why I would want to have this bid available when 5/5 and not have to risk the 2-level, ergo using double as a minimum of 4/5 but in practice I'm more likely to be 5/5.

 

IMO an important and overlooked point is having a valid reason to bid. If I hold something like KQxxx, x, QJ10xx, xx I can certainly expect that with sufficient fit to be able to do a number of positive things: bid and make a game, bid and make a partscore, or bid to a useful sacfrifice. The distinction here IMO is that a true balance has at its heart the concept of either making your own 2-level contract or forcing the opponents one level higher where you may then secure a plus score.

 

I also happen to agree with Han that more concentrated values with less shape could sway me to compete - but even then I am doing so with purpose and my partner should not be disappointed in my hand if he jumps to the 3-level in one of my suits on Axxx - my concentration and accompanying shortness in at least one of the opps suits should provide a degree of protection, although in truth I would be more likely to simply overcall 1S is the suit were good enough.

 

Winston

[civill]

Team match

We are NV vs VULN.

 

You are dealt, 1st seat:

 

KJxx-T-Txxx-Axxx

 

 

YOU....LHO.....PARD......RHO

 

Pass...1C......Pass........1H

Pass...2H......Pass.........Pass

?

 

Do you balance or not ?

It's too late to decide whether bid,Just getting not too many dirty water!

[Chamaco]

Team match

We are NV vs VULN.

 

You are dealt, 1st seat:

 

KJxx-T-Txxx-Axxx

 

 

YOU....LHO.....PARD......RHO

 

Pass...1C......Pass........1H

Pass...2H......Pass.........Pass

?

 

Do you balance or not ?

It's too late to decide whether bid,Just getting not too many dirty water!

I am sorry I did not understand what you mean... ;)

[Double !]

On the other hand, entering is riskier and (not sure this has been mentioned) may give declarer essential information later. I'm actually not so worried about going for a big number in 1S NV against V.

Han

I agree with you that there is a definite risk of giving declarer additional info should the opps buy the hand. Just as opening a mini NT can give some otherwise undisclosed info. But, that is a risk that I, personally, would choose to take at imps in order to try to explore at a low level whether or not we are competing in the master suit or not. Maybe this is a poor strategy for me in the long run, but i have been OK with this so far. And I very much avoid overcalls on 4-card suits. I would not suggest doubling with this weak a hand if I didn't own the master suit (spades).

 

Actually, these types of hands are one reason why I personally like to play lighter than normal direct 1NT overcalls NV (13-16). It takes off some of the pressure on the partnership when one has an opener but no good bid after the opps opener. The risk of double and going for a number again is measured against the gain of being able to get into the competitive auction as well as depriving the opps of some exchange of info. Good to have some escape system in place. (OK, more of a matchpoint bid but, then, i cut my teeth on matchpoints.)

 

I am not trying to win any debate. I am just sharing some (possibly distorted) opinions and style, and absorbing the feedback.

 

DHL

[civill]

I am sorry I did not understand what you mean... :)

Pass...1C......Pass........1H

Pass(?)

 

Could u understand now?

[benlessard]

Yes textbook X not balancing when stiff in opp suit cost too much in the long run.

 

 

i would prefer to X on the first round.

 

 

Ben

[Codo]

I surely had doubled at the table, but the reasons given here for passing are quite convincing, so I MAY pass next time.

I had not bid 2 Spade, because I have some defence -more then my double promises-, so 2 H X may be the right contract... but not this time

[joshs]

Well this is an interesting decision. Xing is normal but also depends on partnership style a lot. Partner is marked with about 10-14 HCP, and likely has 4 hearts (maybe only 3) and likely has club shortness (but its not guaranteed) and did not x 1C or overcall. If Partner has 4 hearts, he probably does not have 4 spades, or he has only 10-11 HCP. What is the moral of this? The moral is: balancing when partner failed to act over the opponents 1C opening is more dangerous than usual.

 

Options:

A. You can x 1H. This is also a bit dangerous, but you are a level lower. This may help the opps with the play if they are strong, or may help partner with his defense. Rarely will it ever find a good sack, since partner, with a long suit, would have bid already. If your values were mostly in S and Diamonds I would vote for xing 1H, but as they are I probably would pass 1H. Having said that, I am a strong believer in bidding very agressively at the 1 level rather then guessing in balancing auctions and I don't mind xing 1H.

B. You can x 2H. You likely have a fit somewhere (but probably at the 3 level), and hopefully partner knows to bid 2S with 3433.

C. You can bid 2S. If you do this frequently on this hand type, partner probably should not bid 2S on 3433 if you x. This is a partnership style thing.

 

In general, when in a dangerous situation, try to stay off the 3 level where its easy to get xed (This is sometimes known as "Rodwell's Rule"). At the 2 level, even if one player xes the other player often pulls...

E.G. With less than half the deck you are often better off in a 7 card fit at the 2 level than an 8 card fit at the 3 level where you are more likely to get xed. Here you don't know that you have less than half the deck, but partner with a 10 count might suspect it.

 

Josh