Chamaco Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Team matchWe are NV vs VULN. You are dealt, 1st seat: KJxx-T-Txxx-Axxx YOU....LHO.....PARD......RHO Pass...1C......Pass........1HPass...2H......Pass.........Pass? Do you balance or not ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 I balance too.And I'm going to say that whoever says he will pass I bet $25c that he wouldn't pass at the table.This looks like a typical redemption post where you did something normal as balancing here, and something terrible happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted February 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Alright, I did double. Pard passed with: T93-KQ74-Qxx-KT3 We could have set the contract by 1, but I made a mistake defending that allowed to make. However, I felt the contract was way too close to defend it Xed at IMPS, and I was wondering whether my balancing double should have promised more strength than the hand I actually had i always thought that in such a sequence (I was a passed hand), a double in the bal seat could come as well from my sort of hand. My doubt were augmented by the fact I was playing with a real expert: e.g. , a player who has had national achievements in Italy and is regular partner of an ex world champion. Hence I posted here just to have some feedback on wheher my assessment about the suitability for balancing double here should be reconsidered... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Alright, I did double. Pard passed with: T93-KQ74-Qxx-KT3 We could have set the contract by 1, but I made a mistake defending that allowed to make. However, I felt the contract was way too close to defend it Xed at IMPS, and I was wondering whether my balancing double should have promised more than my hand. i always thought that in such a sequence (I was a passed hand), a double in the bal seat could come as well from my sort of hand. My doubt were augmented by the fact I was playing with a real expert: e.g. , a player who has had national achievements in Italy and is regular partner of an ex world champion I think your pd's pass was bad. I have a partnership rule that there is no hand that can pass a balancing double of a supported 1M-2M major, since in order to make the double effective that hand would have overcalled 1NT before. So in this hand your pd can try 2NT or 2♠ I'm not sure which call is better but passing and punishing pd for balancing is in my view terrible. In the best scenario you will make pd sweat and suffer to get +100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Your double is clearcut. If you had more HCP, your partner would probably have fewer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Agree with everything Luis wrote, except I wouldn't consider 2NT with partner's hand, as that would be scrambling with both minors for me. Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Well, you are going to tell me this is hindsightitis, but I wouldn't double on that hand at IMPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Did your side lead a trump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blofeld Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 I would double on your hand. I don't think pass on your partner's hand is totally unreasonable (best chance for a positive score). I want to say it depends on the state of the match, but IIRC this was board 2 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigi_BC84 Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Well, you are going to tell me this is hindsightitis, but I wouldn't double on that hand at IMPs. I'm not going to suppose hindsightedness, but would you explain why you would not balance with this hand? IMO the hand comes quite close to a textbook example for balancing (could be a tad stronger maybe). --Sigi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 This is typical of the "who's got what?" decision. Since pard did not make a t/o double of 1C (you have length) and did not overcall a D, he has less than a good hand to balance into or he has a better hand with 13-14 hcp with C values. Once you hear the auction, it is much more likely that he has the poorer hand. You will take the tap in a spade contract and it is unlikely that you will go for less than 100. I think it unlikely that they would double 2S or bid 3H so what are their chances of making 2H? The bet is a poor one with the downside being way worse than the upside. Sell to 2H and try your best to beat it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Double is resonable, but doubling 1♥ as a passed hand is much better--partner won't be tempted to leave it in at the one level, he will know you have some values and good shape and can push them with the right hand and sell to 2♥ undoubled with the wrong hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 I have a partner who says I don't balance enough. I balance less often than I used to, but I think I still balance too much. Since we know the result, I won't try to say what I would have done, but let me suggest a few reasons for caution: Partner most likely has 4 hearts. There is little reason to think he has another four card suit. The opponents having 22 high card points is certainly consistent with their auction, in fact they might have 23 (split 14-9). If partner has a second four card suit it may well be diamonds so we play at the three level. If he has 3-4-3-3 we will be playing in a 4-3 with the first ruff to be taken in the long hand. It might not help even if we survive. They may go on to 3H and, with the added distributional information supplied by our intervention, play it one trick better than they would have. As I say, I balance less often lately, but I think I still end up regretting the balance more often than I regret the pass. For whatever it's worth, I am aware that this is not the dominant view. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted February 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Did your side lead a trump? Yes I lead a trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted February 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Double is resonable, but doubling 1♥ as a passed hand is much better--partner won't be tempted to leave it in at the one level, he will know you have some values and good shape and can push them with the right hand and sell to 2♥ undoubled with the wrong hand. Mike,after my Mike Lawrence readings on doubles, overcalls and balancing, I thought that doubling immeddiatley 1H would be MORE dangerous than the actual action I did: my reasoning is: after the 1H response, both opps are unlimited, and I can be sandwiched easily. True, that would happen at the 1 level but still, sticking the nose in an unlimited auction without a long, good suit seems risky to me. Instead, when a simple raise is getting passed out at the 2-level, opps are limited, and chances are that they won't be able to penalize us (sadly, this is not always true LOL). And indeed, I was always taught that it's losing bridge (= doouble partscore swings, etc etc), even at IMPS, to give up on 2-level partscores battles when the shape and vulnerability allows us to compete But, I am here on this forum to listen and learn from you folks, so I'll appreciate any further comments... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 I would double the second time, not the first. But I am close to Frances' view because there are a lot of danger signs here. There is an excellent chance that we are going to catch partner with the shape he had (if not the values/honour location he had). But passing will all too often lose a partscore battle. I would pass if vulnerable. Having passed twice (I agree with the second pass at imps), partner should be under no illusions as to my defensive power. His pass of 2♥ is explicable only if he was tired, or taking a shot. I think he should bid a quiet, confident 2♠. They are unlikely to double, for the same reason that he ought not to be passing your balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 I'm certain that I would also have double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 i would not double at imps... i would at MPs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 yes i would balance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double ! Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 Double is resonable, but doubling 1♥ as a passed hand is much better--partner won't be tempted to leave it in at the one level, he will know you have some values and good shape and can push them with the right hand and sell to 2♥ undoubled with the wrong hand. I could be wrong, but I believe that it might have been better to have competed earlier with this hand (double 1H). If the opps have 8 hearts between them, and you have one, then (math majors please confirm) partner rates to have 4 hearts. I don't know what the percentages are that having one 4-card suit might reduce the chance of having a second 4-card suit, but... P can be hung if you balance at the 2-level when you could have competed at the 1-level and P is 4-trip-3.As I think about this, I am thinking that, yes, I want to have the classic shape when making an immediate competitive (takeout) double but that, on this auction, having 2 or 3 cards in the opps suit might increase the chances that our partnership has a viable 8+-card fit. Yo no sais/ je ne sais pas. Interesting topic DHL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 Double is resonable, but doubling 1♥ as a passed hand is much better--partner won't be tempted to leave it in at the one level, he will know you have some values and good shape and can push them with the right hand and sell to 2♥ undoubled with the wrong hand. I could be wrong, but I believe that it might have been better to have competed earlier with this hand (double 1H). If the opps have 8 hearts between them, and you have one, then (math majors please confirm) partner rates to have 4 hearts. I don't know what the percentages are that having one 4-card suit might reduce the chance of having a second 4-card suit, but... P can be hung if you balance at the 2-level when you could have competed at the 1-level and P is 4-trip-3.As I think about this, I am thinking that, yes, I want to have the classic shape when making an immediate competitive (takeout) double but that, on this auction, having 2 or 3 cards in the opps suit might increase the chances that our partnership has a viable 8+-card fit. Yo no sais/ je ne sais pas. Interesting topic DHLI respectfully disagree. When the auction begins P-1C-P-1H, you are between two unlimited opponents who have not shown a fit and both know you don't have enough to open the bidding and also know your partner could not overcall 1C or make a takeout double. Stepping in here without excellent compensating shape is much riskier than when the opponents' have announced a fit (the 2H raise) and then showed limited values by not trying for game. Also, the 2H raise has a much higher chance of being based on a 4-card raise than a 3-card raise as most pairs would still bid 1S with 4324 or 4315 patterns. If on the given hand you caught partner with the same shape but 0-6 hcp and LHO redoubled it could get bloody even in 1S doubled. Winston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbreath Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 Hi..doubling certainly isnt 'safe', but neither is pass. I'm much more aggressive than i used to be in these positions because it's gonna be hard to beat 2H even if p has 4.Additionally, opps 'know' it's their hand and will probably compete to 3H unless they have clear-cut alternative action. This may not hold true against really strong pairs, but in general y must pressurise the opps as often as possible. Rgds Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double ! Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 I respectfully disagree. When the auction begins P-1C-P-1H, you are between two unlimited opponents who have not shown a fit and both know you don't have enough to open the bidding and also know your partner could not overcall 1C or make a takeout double. Stepping in here without excellent compensating shape is much riskier than when the opponents' have announced a fit (the 2H raise) and then showed limited values by not trying for game. Also, the 2H raise has a much higher chance of being based on a 4-card raise than a 3-card raise as most pairs would still bid 1S with 4324 or 4315 patterns. If on the given hand you caught partner with the same shape but 0-6 hcp and LHO redoubled it could get bloody even in 1S doubled. Winston May I respectfully question your respectful disagreement? lol - I love these discussions: I learn a lot from them. IMO, I guess there are two ways to look at this. On the given bidding sequence, the opps have found a fit but have also bid approximately to their limit, i.e.: they have already determined about how high and in what strain they are going to bid. To balance now is sort of like giving a fielder's choice because the partner has somewhat limited itself. Yet it seems automatic at matchpoints. Should one decide to compete earlier by of bidding directly over the 1H response, yes, both opps are as yet unlimited, but now they have neither determined how high or in what strain their partnership should be playing the hand. Yes, that could result in an occasional big number (not vul), but the opps might determine that they won;t collect a large enough penalty and continue bidding. In addition, there are hands where partner can have reasonable values and still not have a bid over 1 Club by opps. It's late and I know that my personal preference is to get in quickly when I have the right shape. I shall wait and listen to more feedback, and learn. DHL ps: still wish I had a pair of Luis' sunglasses. Makes these decisions so much easier!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 I double every day of the week, at whatever format of the game, at whatever vulnerability in this situation. I wouldn't even think twice about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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