Moscito vugraph

[Echognome]

I suggested to Richard that we try to have two matches. One involving stars and the other involving the bourgeoisie. I think it would be fun to do a series of scientists vs naturalists in general, rather than just MOSCITO vs all comers. But, I'm happy to see any good match in this context. I wonder if we could set up something bigger, like a multiple teams event where we had different systems competing. I know I could field a Tarzan club team for example. Maybe we could have a Fantunes team, a polish club team, a MOSCITO team, etc. I know that is all a great deal more than setting up a simple team match, but I think it would be interesting for people to follow. Anyway, the important thing is that it looks like we will get one great match with MOSCITO vs natural and I, for one, would love to see it played.

[luke warm]

roland is right about fred playing, that's an almost guaranteed kib overload (in a good way)... as for chat, i'll be the lone (thusfar) desenter.. i'd much prefer knowledgable commentators in the vugraph hall with no kib chat to interfere..

 

this looks great :)

[Sigi_BC84]

OK, having Fred in the equation will certainly add many kibitzers.

 

There is another advantage of playing in a normal team room, which is that the players can alert the calls (are self alerts possible in the vugraph theater, too?) or that Full Disclore could be used (probably the best option, if available).

 

--Sigi

[Walddk]

There is another advantage of playing in a normal team room, which is that the players can alert the calls (are self alerts possible in the vugraph theater, too?)

Alerts in the vugraph theatre are made by the operator.

 

Roland

[hrothgar]

Here are my current thoughts

 

1. I'd very much like to see a series of exhibition matches designed to showcase different bidding methods. I'm not particularly interested in trying to establish which system is "best". Rather, I think that there is some real value in exposing players to different philosophies regarding bidding. As other people have suggested, I think that this is best accomplished by ensuring that we have knowledgable commentators available to describe whats going on. Personally, I'd prefer to have a series of matches run rather than a massive hodgepodge. In April we have 2/1 GF versus MOSCITO. Does anyone have the "right" contacts to set up a Poland versus Italy match in May? (I'm sure this woudl be a great match and wouldn't require imposing on Fred)

 

2. If there is serious interest, I'd be happy to arrange a second "nebbish" match using the same boards and same (basic) bidding systems to be run concurrently.

[Sigi_BC84]

2. If there is serious interest, I'd be happy to arrange a second "nebbish" match using the same boards and same (basic) bidding systems to be run concurrently.

I guess it goes without saying that there is quite some interest in this. The idea of having regular exhibition matches of this kind is wonderful. Maybe this will catch on, would be really awesome.

 

--Sigi

[akhare]

2.  If there is serious interest, I'd be happy to arrange a second "nebbish" match using the same boards and same (basic) bidding systems to be run concurrently.

Sounds good -- do let me know if you need Moscito players for the "also played" team ;) -- I will be happy to play the system.

 

BTW, this will presumably be the Moscito system from your Moscito 2000 document, right?

 

Atul

[cherdano]

I would like to echo Richard's comment that this will be best if we have knowledgeable commentators, in particular about the non-natural systems. I.e. someone who not only can explain the meaning of the relays, but also relate why the player chose relays over a 4-card GF raise or vice versa. Or what he decided not to find out about when the bidding just went 1N-3N. Etc.

 

I am sure this will be great. Btw, I wouldn't call it "2/1 vs Moscito"; I understand that for Frances and her partner, a 2/1 isn't even promising a rebid.

 

Arend

[Gerben42]

I bet the stronger team will win regardless of system. Still, it will be interesting to see :)

[Sigi_BC84]

I bet the stronger team will win regardless of system. Still, it will be interesting to see :)

I don't think we should take the competition as an attempt to find out which system is superior -- of course in the end the "better" team will win, if not randomness will decide matters (since it will be a fairly short match after all).

 

To make this an interesting and worthwhile event we only need fairly balanced teams in terms of playing (carding) strength and, most importantly, good commentators who are giving some in-depth explanations about what is happening (like Arend has pointed out very clearly).

 

What I'm looking forward to is, firstly, seeing Moscito in action in a "serious" event where each side is giving their best. Secondly, I'm hoping to see at least some boards where both methods will show their merits, respectively. Who is winning in the end doesn't matter that much to me.

 

--Sigi

[Elianna]

To me, the main benefit of commentators in vugraph is that (hopefully!) they will have system notes and be able to explain the bidding.

 

In these proposed matches, I'm assuming that people will have FD loaded, or at the very least be alerting, and so my desire for commentators is nonexistant.

 

In fact, I vote for closing table chat, and if people want to talk they can private chat with each other.

 

I may be the only one that feels this way, and if so, I already am set: I have most of the people who like expounding at WC tables clubbed already! :)

[Walddk]

In these proposed matches, I'm assuming that people will have FD loaded

Does the FD also tell you how to declare and defend? Maybe expert commentators could help with that. You may not need it but I bet that hundreds do and that they will appreciate it. Your approach seems somewhat selfish imo.

 

Roland

[luis]

I might ask my mom AnaA to play again, we play the German version of Moscito known as German-Moscito but the whole relays are there as usual, with denial cuebids and related.

I'm not sure about the local schedule for April or if you want me to play or not.

 

Luis

[awm]

Does the FD also tell you how to declare and defend? Maybe expert commentators could help with that. You may not need it but I bet that hundreds do and that they will appreciate it. Your approach seems somewhat selfish imo.

 

Roland

That's what GIB is for.... just kidding. ;)

 

There's definitely a subset of the audience that doesn't enjoy or value the commentary. While it would certainly be selfish to want to cut off those people who enjoy the comments by enforcing silence at the table, it's also a bit egotistical to enforce that everyone must listen to the commentators chat.

 

For regular vugraph, it's easy enough to satisfy both groups. Just let the commentators commentate, and if someone doesn't want to listen they can club the commentators and check "ignore enemy chat."

 

But that's not the choice at a team table. The options are either let everyone talk or disallow chat by everyone. It's not feasible to club everyone at a table with 100s of kibs, and if there's a lot of random chatter then even the people who want to listen to the qualified commentators may be unable to. Silencing kib chat seems like a very reasonable option here.

 

On the other hand, I should mention that for a long time okbridge had no such controls (anyone could chat to kibitzers) and yet the majority would be fairly quiet during top flight matches.

 

Perhaps the ideal in the long run would be to set up vugraph-like controls for team matches, so that if certain options are selected, only "official commentators" would be able to chat to kibitzers.

[cherdano]

I don't think it's necessary to regulate kibitz chat for this match. We now frequently have world class (in the proper sense, not the BBO definition) matches or tables on BBO, and the kib chat usually isn't overflowing. (And when there is kib chat, it's not necessarily worse in quality or less bridge related than the comments by some of the regular commentators.)

Anyway, I am sure players capable of commenting play and defense will show up. But the same won't be true about the bidding unless hrothgar can arrange it in advance.

 

Arend

[Walddk]

Perhaps the ideal in the long run would be to set up vugraph-like controls for team matches, so that if certain options are selected, only "official commentators" would be able to chat to kibitzers.

That would be ideal, I agree, and I have mentioned this to Uday before. As far as I understand, it's not a trivial issue. Maybe in a future release now that the world class team matches seem to be here to stay.

 

Roland

[Walddk]

But the same won't be true about the bidding unless hrothgar can arrange it in advance.

I don't doubt that Richard can arrange that, but are you sure that I don't have Moscito experts on my list with 181 commentators from all over the world?

 

Roland

[Blofeld]

If it's run as a team match, can one silence kibitzers at the moment?

 

I thought that disabling kibitzer chat merely prevented them from talking to the players ; talking to other kibitzers would still work. At any rate my vote would be to allow people to talk.

 

I'd love to see this match.

[Walddk]

If it's run as a team match, can one silence kibitzers at the moment?

Yes, but as I said above, it takes some complicated programming (Uday knows much more about this than me).

 

Roland

[hrothgar]

To me, the main benefit of commentators in vugraph is that (hopefully!) they will have system notes and be able to explain the bidding.

 

In these proposed matches, I'm assuming that people will have FD loaded, or at the very least be alerting, and so my desire for commentators is nonexistant.

 

In fact, I vote for closing table chat, and if people want to talk they can private chat with each other.

 

I may be the only one that feels this way, and if so, I already am set: I have most of the people who like expounding at WC tables clubbed already! ;)

Personally, I agree with Elianna. Moreover, I already talked to Paul about trying to make sure that the MOSCITO pairs have Full Disclosure files documenting their methods. I suspect that I might be the one required to document the system, but I do hope that we are able to provide this.

 

Even so, I think that its useful to differentiate between the information provided by Full Disclosure and the types of details that a commentator should be able to provide. For example:

 

Assume that partner has just opened in a major. You hold a game forcing hand with 4+ card support. You have the option of chosing either a convention Jacoby 2NT type raise OR to start a relay sequence. MOSCITO recommends starting with the 2NT raise since there is too great a chance that the opponent will intervene during the relay (leaving you poorly positioned)

 

I'd be shocked if the audience were able to extract this from a convention card...

[Walddk]

To me, the main benefit of commentators in vugraph is that (hopefully!) they will have system notes and be able to explain the bidding.

In these proposed matches, I'm assuming that people will have FD loaded, or at the very least be alerting, and so my desire for commentators is nonexistant.

 

In fact, I vote for closing table chat, and if people want to talk they can private chat with each other.

 

I may be the only one that feels this way, and if so, I already am set:  I have most of the people who like expounding at WC tables clubbed already!  ;)

Personally, I agree with Elianna.

I can't say I'm surprised that Richard feels this way, but I think it's very inconsiderate to the hundreds of specs who will attend. Well fine, they will be able to follow the auction by virtue of FD, but let me ask again: what about play and defence?

 

The auction is only half of the hand, isn't it? Don't you think that the majority of spectators would feel somewhat lost if for example non routine play and defence were not explained to them by expert commentators?

 

I know this is the case, and unlike many others I know what the audience wants after 3 years as a vugraph coordinator.

 

Roland

[hrothgar]

>> Personally, I agree with Elianna.

 

>I can't say I'm surprised that Richard feels this way, but I think it's very

>inconsiderate to the hundreds of specs who will attend. Well fine, they will be

>able to follow the auction by virtue of FD, but let me ask again: what about

>play and defence?

 

Did you bother to read the rest of what I wrote where I specifically said that commentators would be needed in addition to FD?

 

>I know this is the case, and unlike many others I know what the audience wants

>after 3 years as a vugraph coordinator.

 

And this gives you the excuse not to pay attention to what other people are saying

[Walddk]

>> Personally, I agree with Elianna.

 

>I can't say I'm surprised that Richard feels this way, but I think it's very

>inconsiderate to the hundreds of specs who will attend. Well fine, they will be

>able to follow the auction by virtue of FD, but let me ask again: what about

>play and defence?

 

Did you bother to read the rest of what I wrote where I specifically said that commentators would be needed in addition to FD?

 

>I know this is the case, and unlike many others I know what the audience wants

>after 3 years as a vugraph coordinator.

 

And this gives you the excuse not to pay attention to what other people are saying

Oh yes, I did it indeed read it, but you did not mention play and defence with one word. The only reason you would want commentators is to further explain the bidding. Why this and why not that, and so on.

 

My direct question was: what about play and defence? Did you answer that question anywhere? No!

 

Roland

[Sigi_BC84]

Oh yes, I did it indeed read it, but you did not mention play and defence with one word. The only reason you would want commentators is to further explain the bidding. Why this and why not that, and so on.

 

My direct question was: what about play and defence? Did you answer that question anywhere? No!

No one doubts that comments on the play and defence are valuable and that people want them. I guess Richard didn't deem it necessary to reconfirm that.

 

Let's keep in mind that the main motivation for holding this match is the exposition of a bidding system, not showing off the card wizardry of some top stars.

 

So indeed it will be of paramount importance that some top experts on Moscito and relay methods in general will be commenting on the following:

• what do the bids mean?
  
• why did the player choose (not) to relay?
  
• what could happen if he did relay now (i.e. lead directing doubles, preemption etc.)
  
• which inferences are/would be given to the oppos?
  
• relay specific issues, i.e. right/wrongsiding of the contract etc.
  

Of course there will be commentary on the actual play of the hands as well, but this goes without saying anyway, doesn't it?

 

Edit: I know that Moscito is not mainly about relaying, but about having quick-in-quick-out auctions. There should be plenty of commentary on that as well, of course.

 

--Sigi

[Echognome]

I talked to one of my friends. There's a good chance we could get a Tarzan club team including Bauke Muller and Simon De Wijs along with another good pair (their teammates from the spring foursomes). I would be happy to help commentate. I mentioned that April would be the most likely time. Any chance a natural or other team could be arranged for that?