Preempts in my soup

[pclayton]

Mike: I think its a bit misleading to come up with 5-2 club fits opposite: AJx Kxx Ax AQJxx, where 6♣ is a playable spot and call 4-3 heart fit across from the same hand an impossible spot.

 

Why can't we move the club queen to the heart suit: AJx, KQJ, Ax, Axxxx. Here, 6♣ is very poor, but 6♥ is excellent.

 

I still don't think this is a worthwhile argument about 5♦ vs 5N either.

 

Preempts do work. We can cope with solid agreements about what 5♦ and 5N mean, but getting to the right strain and level isn't always possible.

[Finch]

So as the doubler, with a 5413 I would bid 6S over 5NT, but I would bid 5H over 5D in case partner has hearts and clubs.

A rare moment that I disagree with you ;)

 

If partner has hearts and clubs he is presumably forcing to slam (since if we don't fit his major he must go to 6C... I can't see him passing 5M if we DO fit his major, but if we don't driving it to 6C). So if we bid 5S over 5D partner can bid 6C over this and we can correct to 6H.

You are right on this sequence.

OK, make it so they have pre-empted in clubs and swap the minors round.

[luis]

Ok time to tell what happened at the table:

 

On hand #1 where they opened 4♦ I really didn't know what to do, 5♦ seemed to be very technical but then when pd bids 5♥ or 5♠ I would have exactly the same problem. I decided that 5 in a major would be a generic invitation to 6 but I had both majors so my choices were bidding 5♦ and find the right suit but don't know about the level or bid 5♥/5♠ and find the right level but maybe the wrong suit. All in all I decided that it was important to know if the hand was a slam or not and bid 5♥, pd raised to 6.

 

Dummy presented:

AQx

QJxxx

x

AQxx

 

The opening leader had AKQJxxx of diamonds so there was no overruff and the heart King was onside.

 

Some interesting things about this deal:

- What would have happened after a 3NT opening?

- If they open 3♦ and we have space for keycards it seems like you will stay in 5 because you might be missing 2 aces so I wonder, when they open a preempt is it better to play regular blackwood assuming the trump king if missing will be onside?? *Luis scratching his head*

- At one table the auction went 3NT (gambling) - DBl - All pass (!!) for -2300 :-)

- Besides the 2300 nobody opened 4♦ so +1430 was worth a bunch of imps I'm not sure if we did right, we were lucky or a combination

 

 

On hand #2 where they opened 2♥ and pd doubled I decided that 4♠ was not a good idea because it was very likely that pd could have a strong hand with a minor so I bid 3♠. Over 3♠ pd asked for keycards and then bid 6♠ this was his hand:

 

AQx

x

AKxx

AQxxx

 

With the sK he only needs the club king for 6 and how are you going to find it? Do you have a way? Again 6♠ depended on a finesse, this time it was offside as expected, down 1. The 2♥ bidder had 7 cards, his pd decided not to act with 4 because he thought it could help us. Sigh...

 

On hand #3 I think I agree a lot with Inquiry, when my pd refused to make a takeout double and decided to go above 3NT my conclusions were:

- His hand can't play 3NT facing a hand that couldn't bid over 3♠

- He doesn' have 4 hearts

- Clubs must be a broken suit too

So I passed, pd had:

 

x

Kxx

Axx

KJ9xxx

 

He misguessed clubs (the 3♠ bidder had a singleton Q) then there was a combination of endplay or diamonds 3-3 that worked for down only 1. At some tables they didn't bid 4♣ and 3♠ was made, at some others when 4♣ was bid all the pairs raised to 5♣, this was doubled half the time for 500.

You might disagree with 4♣ but when pd has some moderate values and a club fit he might not act over 3♠ and yet you can be cold for a club game. Who knows? The important thing is that if you are going to reopen with 4♣ on such a hand your pd has to be in the same wavelength to pass with the posted hand.

 

Feedback as usual is welcome, interesting discussion so far.

 

Luis

[whereagles]

So I passed, pd had:

 

x

Kxx

Axx

KJ9xxx

Obvious 3NT balancing bid :)

 

J/K. This is just about what to expect from 4♣ in practice. In theory balancer should, perhaps, have longer clubs and less heart lenght, but we all know the hand shown is what pard has most of the time in real life.

 

By the way, pard didn't fancy a double? After all, he can play in all suits, no? :wub:

[pbleighton]

"You might disagree with 4♣ but when pd has some moderate values and a club fit he might not act over 3♠ and yet you can be cold for a club game. Who knows? The important thing is that if you are going to reopen with 4♣ on such a hand your pd has to be in the same wavelength to pass with the posted hand."

 

I would never do it when vulnerable myself. NV, it would be OK, if marginal.

 

As you say, it comes down to what pd expects.

 

Peter

[pbleighton]

"By the way, pard didn't fancy a double? After all, he can play in all suits, no?"

 

He should have either 4 hearts or a better hand for double, IMO.

 

Peter

[Finch]

I would have either doubled or passed on the 1336. I think it's close between the two.

[ArtK78]

Everyone in this thread is punishing partner for acting over a preempt.

 

I agree that direct actions over preempts show values, but....

 

Let's not go overboard.

 

1) 4S. If partner cannot act over 4S, we may not have a slam. I have some stuff, but we could easily have 2 losers.

 

2) 3S is sufficient. A 4S bid, while it is what I think we can make, may propel partner to the stratosphere.

 

3) I pass 4C. I have a couple of tricks for partner. Since when does a balancing 4C call promise 9 playing tricks?