Preempts in my soup

[luis]

Some problems from last night:

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=skqtxhat9xdxxxckx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

They open 4♦ on your left and pd doubles,RHO passes, what do you bid and what is your plan of action?

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=skqtxhat9xdxxxckx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

They open 2♥ on your left, pd doubles, RHO passes how many spades do you bid and why?

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=skqtxhat9xdxxxckx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

RHO opens 3♠ pass pass and pd reopens with 4♣, what do you bid now? What do you think about 4♣?

 

Have fun!

Luis

[pbleighton]

1. 6D, pick a major suit slam. No room for science.

2. 4S, 3 is tempting but we should have 10 spades and I have gotten burned too many times being chicken in auctions like this.

3. 5C. 4C should be a good suit and hand when vulnerable.

 

Peter

[mikeh]

1. 5♦. I intend to raise his 5major to slam or pass his 6♣. If we are off the 1st 2 ♦ tricks or if 2 rounds of ♦ promotes a trump loser, too bad.

 

2. 4♠. Shows my hand. Denies a good hand in terms of high card points, since I did not cue-bid and then bid ♠

 

I do not make takeout doubles when very short in the other major, so I know that partner (if he thinks like me) has some support.

 

3. 5♣. I have no real thoughts about 4♣, other than that 5♣ is likely but not assured of having a play.

[inquiry]

#1, Five diamonds pick a major is out, partner will take that for exclusion. 6D might get partner thinking not only pick a major, but that I have a void (not that he would bid grand, but if they bid 7D he might think I have a void)....so I bid 5NT, pick a slam

 

#2, where are the rest of the hearts? I have one, partner doubled, and RHO didn't try to raise the preempt. I suspect partner has a big balanced hand (too good for 2NT) with heart stoppers. Thus I will trott out an unexpected 3♠ thinking he will correct to 3NT. If partner turns out to ahve the expected monster hand, we might have slam, maybe even in clubs. Bidding 4!S there will be no way to find out. IF I am playing with a timid partner, I might bid 4!s anyway.... .

 

#3. I pass 4♣, and I think we might not make it.

[Finch]

#1, Five diamonds pick a major is out, partner will take that for exclusion.

OK, if ever there was a reason not to play 'exclusion' this is it.... since when has a cue bid - not even a jump cue bid - in an opponent's suit suddenly become Blackwood, in an auction where we are already at the 4-level and haven't yet decided what suit to play in, never mind whether it's a game or slam hand?

[Guest Jlall]

I'm just going to repeat Mikeh. I will try adding a few things though.

 

1) Slam is not assured. This hand is a guess. Partner was under pressure and I'm hanging him, but I do have a great hand and at least this way we will get to the right strain. bidding 4S might work, but that doesn't show any values. I think that 5D will work best overall, but it won't necessarily lead to a good result. I don't understand why partner might take this as exclusion. In terms of prioritizing, I think finding to investigate fit and strain more important than being able to bid exclusion. For similar reasons 4S X p 4N is not blackwood.

 

2) I understand what you're getting at. Partner probably has some bid hand given RHO's pass. Regardless, I need to bid my hand. If I had a less shapely more high card based 4S bid I would cuebid for partner. It is possible that he has some kind of 4333 13 or 14 count as opposed to a hand that was going to X and bid something. Playing with a weak partner I would probably try 3S as they will likely bid blackwood over 4S when it's wrong, but I will expect a good player to play me for a hand like this.

 

3) 4C has a very wide range. Partner will feel pressure with a stiff spade and 6 clubs and a 13 count to keep the auction open but could be an ace better. Red at imps I'm not going to try and stop on a dime, especially since we may even make game opposite a stiff spade and a minimum hand.

[Finch]

1. On the principle of 'strain before level' I suppose I will cue 5♦ (which must show a slam try even on that principle). I'm less convinced than other people that this is worth a slam force; and if partner bids 5M I shall pay serious attention to passing. Aside from the major issue of two potential diamond losers, something such as AJxx Kxx x AQxxx is a non-minimum take-out double with controls in every suit and slam is no bargain, particularly after the pre-empt.

 

Yes, I realise slam could easily be cold. That's why they pre-empt.

A simulation would only help matters if you defined partner's minimum hand.

 

The main argument that I can see in favour of driving slam is that if we do have 2 fast diamond losers we may not be making at the 5-level either (just think of how the play will go starting with 3 rounds of diamonds - we will need a very robust trump suit).

 

2. 4♠ I suppose. This should be a 'no-slam-interest' call, because one of an immediate 3S and 2NT-followed-by-3S should be forcing with spades (and of course all your partnerships know which is which). I expect 4S to go off some of the time, but as game is making opposite many minimum take-out doubles without the perfect shape, it's a bit pusillanimous not to bid it. I could be persuaded that an invitational spade bid is correct.

 

3. 5♣. I wouldn't pass. I am toying with 4NT instead, but it's a bit of a position and I'd be more tempted at matchpoints.

[cherdano]

On 1), I would really prefer to invite to slam, but I can't do that without guessing the strain. So I bid 5♦ like everyone else. Better go down in 6 of the right strain than in 5 of the wrong strain.

 

Arend

[joshs]

1. 5D but I don't think I can make 5D. :)

I will then double cross partner and pass him in 5M, but be happy if he bids 5N or higher.

I have 2 problems here:

a. I am not sure about strain

b. I am not sure about level

If I wanted to stop in 4M its a total guess which suit.

I have a slam INV hand. Against silent opps, I probably have a slam force but here I do not think I have a slam force if partner has only minimal values and we have only an 8 card fit, given the bad breaks. If I can find a 9 card fit, then we likely have slam.

 

2. 2S. When you have a distributional hand without lots of high cards, and the auction indicates that partner is going to bid again, give him room to bid again. If you bid 4S (or even 3S) partner might get you overboard playing you for values as oppossed to just spade length. Now if partner bids 2N next or 3D, or cue-bids you can bid 4S next. If he bids 3C, you can cue bid. If he bids 3N, you have to guess between 4 and 5S, I am a 4S bidder.

 

3. I am torn between 4N (natural) and 5C. I think 5C is safer, but if partner's suit is really strong I would rather be in 4N. All of this depends on my partner's style. With a partner who will gamble 3N on a suficiently strong hand and long minor, even with nothing resembling a stopper, 4C is much more limited. Personally, I usually beleive vul pre-empts, and don't bid 3N without a stopper over them, but some players do...

 

Josh

[Finch]

On 1), I would really prefer to invite to slam, but I can't do that without guessing the strain. So I bid 5♦ like everyone else.

I will then double cross partner and pass him in 5M

 

Two posters think that 5♦ is a slam force.

I don't. I think I am perfectly entitled to pass 5M from partner.

I am showing doubt about strain and at least slam invitational values.

 

Now, it's arguable that our hand is worth a slam force. That's a different discussion...

[pclayton]

1. I will try 5N and pull 6♣ to 6♥. We might be off 2 diamond tricks, but I it seems mean to tease pard with a 5♦ call and drop him in 5M.

 

If I start with 5♦ and raise 5M to 6M, it sounds like I'm conveying a ♦ control. Even though Frances' thread mentioned that cues in preempted auctions don't promise a control, the fact that I'm unilaterally carrying on to 6 after a 5♦ cue should promise diamond shortness.

 

2. 4♠. Playing Lebensohl, 3♠ is forcing (2N...3♣...3♠ shows the invitational hand). I think 4♠ shows this type of hand.

 

3. 5♣. Heck if I know. 5 may be down or we can make 6.

[han]

1) 5D followed by a raise.

 

2) 4S.

 

3) 5C.

[mikeh]

1. I will try 5N and pull 6♣ to 6♥. We might be off 2 diamond tricks, but I it seems mean to tease pard with a 5♦ call and drop him in 5M.

 

If I start with 5♦ and raise 5M to 6M, it sounds like I'm conveying a ♦ control. Even though Frances' thread mentioned that cues in preempted auctions don't promise a control, the fact that I'm unilaterally carrying on to 6 after a 5♦ cue should promise diamond shortness.

 

2. 4♠. Playing Lebensohl, 3♠ is forcing (2N...3♣...3♠ shows the invitational hand). I think 4♠ shows this type of hand.

 

1. 5N is dangerous since it makes it impossible to play 6♣. Furthermore, it runs the risk that partner will play you for longer ♥ than ♠. I do not agree that the sequence of 5♦ followed by a raise shows a ♦ control. Quite the contrary: I think that either 5N followed by 6♦ or 5♦ followed by 6♦ or (possibly) an immediate 6♦ show a control.... whether and when the control is first round is an interesting theoretical question.

 

This is an interesting area, in which I suspect few partnerships have any explicit agreements. We have a myriad of possibilities:

 

5♦ followed by 5N over 5 major

 

5♦ followed by 6♦ over anything

 

5N followed by 6♦ over the expected (but not inevitable) 6♣

 

an immediate 6♦ cue.

 

5♦ followed by a raise

 

It is clear that we should NOT use all of these slam sequences as promising a ♦ control. Here, we have a slam hand with no control... if you think that this is an over-bid, then add whatever modest additional strength you need: an extra small ♦ or a juicy major honour or whatever pleases you. It is clear that we CAN have a slam force that requires help in choosing a strain without our holding a ♦control, so we have to have a method of showing that hand.

 

As for 5N, in my view that is a dangerous bid, since it commits us to a major suit contract when 6♣ could be best.

 

AJx Kxx Ax AQJxx. 6N is best, and 6♠ is fine, but 6♥ is horrible while the mundane 6♣ works out okay.

 

Axx KQx x AQJxxx 6♣ is the only slam that is favoured to make.

 

 

 

2. I agree with 4♠, but caution that it is entirely playable to use the jump to 3♠ as invitational and the 2N- 3♠ as forcing: indeed the entire concept of lebensohl is amenable to considerable work: see Kokish's suggestions (not sure where to find them on the net, and my notes of his methods are buried deeply in my basement somewhere, so please don't ask me :) )

[Finch]

This is an interesting area, in which I suspect few partnerships have any explicit agreements. We have a myriad of possibilities:

Let me try out some general principles on these, and see how I get on.

 

To me, 5NT sounds like "pick any suit, I have 3 of them" and 5D sounds like "I have two suits, bid your lowest one". But that's just an extension from the lower levels where cue or responsive double usually has exactly 2 places to play. So as the doubler, with a 5413 I would bid 6S over 5NT, but I would bid 5H over 5D in case partner has hearts and clubs.

 

- 5♦ followed by 5N over 5 major

sounds like GSF in the selected major (only because I always play 5NT as GSF once we've (in theory) found a fit, keeps my life simple)

 

- 5♦ followed by 6♦ over anything

Grand try in partner's suit, first round diamond control. Only way to make a general grand try, as a new suit over partner's suit would be natural (strain before level...)

 

- 5N followed by 6♦ over the expected (but not inevitable) 6♣

Trying to torture partner.

OK, diamond control, grand try, prepared to play in 6NT

 

- an immediate 6♦ cue.

Diamond void, big 2-suiter, probably the majors (but pulling 6H to 6S is a huge black 2-suiter and hence invites a raise).

 

- 5♦ followed by a raise

OK, we've found where to play

[luis]

I love this discussion, it's fantastic.

 

Let me add some questions to the ones already posted about hand #1.

 

What would a direct jump to 5♥ or 5♠ be ?

[Finch]

Natural, invitational, pretty certain about strain.

I've even had that auction (unlike most of the esoterica discussed above).

[Guest Jlall]

What would a direct jump to 5♥ or 5♠ be ?

Please no one say asks for a diamond control! Just shows a hand too good for 4M and not good enough for 6M.

[mikeh]

What would a direct jump to 5♥ or 5♠ be ?

Please no one say asks for a diamond control! Just shows a hand too good for 4M and not good enough for 6M.

It asks for a ♦ control :D

 

Actually, having it ask for a ♦ control is not outlandish. It appears that at least some of us (Frances and I for sure) think that 5♦ invites partner to bid slam with the right hand. Surely the 'right hand' would include a ♦ control, but a ♦ control is a necessary but not sufficient reason to bid slam.

 

Thus we can construct stronger advancing hands on which the only serious question to be asked is 'do you have a ♦ control'?

 

Thus AJ10xxx Kx xx AJx

 

It is very difficult to see how to ask about a ♦ control if 5♠ does not send that message.

 

And if our suit is ♥, our options are even less attractive: at least with ♠ we could cue and hope for a chance to bid 5♠ over the probable 5♥ (altho I am not suggesting that as a sequence on this hand type... note Frances' reasonable suggestion that this sequence would show both black suits)

 

My own thoughts are with Justin and Frances: the jump in the major sets strain and invites slam. As a matter of logic, few doubling hands will accept without a ♦ control, thus all we lose on are the few hands in which we are 'sure' that we have 12 winners and we hold the equivalent of xx in ♦. Reserving the jump to ask for a ♦ control, and that alone, seems to be too infrequent a situation in comparison.

[Guest Jlall]

What would a direct jump to 5♥ or 5♠ be ?

Please no one say asks for a diamond control! Just shows a hand too good for 4M and not good enough for 6M.

It asks for a ♦ control :D

 

Actually, having it ask for a ♦ control is not outlandish. It appears that at least some of us (Frances and I for sure) think that 5♦ invites partner to bid slam with the right hand. Surely the 'right hand' would include a ♦ control, but a ♦ control is a necessary but not sufficient reason to bid slam.

 

Thus we can construct stronger advancing hands on which the only serious question to be asked is 'do you have a ♦ control'?

 

Thus AJ10xxx Kx xx AJx

 

It is very difficult to see how to ask about a ♦ control if 5♠ does not send that message.

 

And if our suit is ♥, our options are even less attractive: at least with ♠ we could cue and hope for a chance to bid 5♠ over the probable 5♥ (altho I am not suggesting that as a sequence on this hand type... note Frances' reasonable suggestion that this sequence would show both black suits)

 

My own thoughts are with Justin and Frances: the jump in the major sets strain and invites slam. As a matter of logic, few doubling hands will accept without a ♦ control, thus all we lose on are the few hands in which we are 'sure' that we have 12 winners and we hold the equivalent of xx in ♦. Reserving the jump to ask for a ♦ control, and that alone, seems to be too infrequent a situation in comparison.

Right, certainly asking for a control can be useful and I do not believe there is any way to ask specifically for a control. Unfortunately we can't do it all. I agree with you that a general slam invite is MUCH more frequent than a control ask. When they preempt we need to try and cover the most frequent hand types.

 

In general when you have only 4M, 5M, and 6M as possibilities, 5M is just quantitative and not a control ask. Some situations where I have seen people take 5M as a control ask when it should be quantitative include...

 

(4H)-5S. Sure you might be dealt AKQJxxx xx AK AK but a hand too good to bid 4S seems more likely. Xing and bidding spades is not an option as the X will frequently be passed.

 

1C-(4D)-5H. Again, with no room 5H should just show a hand too good for 4H imo.

 

The reason 5M bids generally have specific meanings assinged to them (trump quality or control in unbid suit) is because there are other forcing bids available in almost every auction. In these auctions that is not the case.

[whereagles]

1. Who the hell is LHO? If he can be relied upon having 8 diamonds, I might try 5♦. If not, I'll stick to 4♠ and hope to have guessed right.

 

2. Pard seems to have some sort of strong balanced hand. The priority is to hog the hand, so a 2NT Lebensohl must be the right bid :D Then we follow with some nr. of spades and chances are we get to play the hand :P

 

3. Who the heck pard thinks he is, bypassing 3NT just because "I didn't have a stopper, pard!!" Bah.. bid 5♣ and let HIM sort his way out of that. HA!

[pclayton]

Per Mike:

 

1. 5N is dangerous since it makes it impossible to play 6♣.

 

I don't think you can intelligently get to 6♣. Even if pard has a 4M / 5♣ pattern, I would think he would opt for 5M initially.

 

Furthermore, it runs the risk that partner will play you for longer ♥ than ♠.

 

Why?

 

I do not agree that the sequence of 5♦ followed by a raise shows a ♦ control. Quite the contrary: I think that either 5N followed by 6 or 5♦ followed by 6♦ or (possibly) an immediate 6♦ show a control.... whether and when the control is first round is an interesting theoretical question.

 

Well, as I said before, if you are pushing this hand to the 6 level (some are, some aren't - its an evaluation issue), I still argue that the cue, followed by a raise promises a control. And whether or not a 1st or 2nd round control is an interesting discussion.

 

<snip>

 

AJx Kxx Ax AQJxx. 6N is best, and 6♠ is fine, but 6♥ is horrible while the mundane 6♣ works out okay.

 

Axx KQx x AQJxxx 6♣ is the only slam that is favoured to make.

 

I'm unclear as to how these hands can comfortably get to 6♣ after a 5♦ call. Please explain. Are you suggesting we pass after ...5♦...(pass)....6♣...?

 

 

Per Frances:

 

Let me try out some general principles on these, and see how I get on.

 

To me, 5NT sounds like "pick any suit, I have 3 of them" and 5D sounds like "I have two suits, bid your lowest one". But that's just an extension from the lower levels where cue or responsive double usually has exactly 2 places to play.

 

This is an interesting idea, although I would think it could work the opposite: 5N is two places to play (the 4N idea) and 5♦ is the all-purpose cue that implies tolerance for all strains.

 

So as the doubler, with a 5413 I would bid 6S over 5NT, but I would bid 5H over 5D in case partner has hearts and clubs.

 

Or...5♠ over 5♦ and 6♥ over 5N.

 

- 5♦ followed by 5N over 5 major

sounds like GSF in the selected major (only because I always play 5NT as GSF once we've (in theory) found a fit, keeps my life simple).

 

This is inconsistent with the 5♦=2 places to play idea. 5N would then be needed to be...OK I have tolerance for your suit, but I really wanted you to bid one of the others, as in a 2=5=1=5 after....5♦.....5♠....5N...

 

<snip>

 

- an immediate 6♦ cue.

Diamond void, big 2-suiter, probably the majors (but pulling 6H to 6S is a huge black 2-suiter and hence invites a raise).

 

Agree 100%

 

- 5♦ followed by a raise

OK, we've found where to play

[HeartA]

1 & 3. agree with mikeh.

 

2. I would bid 3S only, in case pd has a big hand and want to bid minors.

[Guest Jlall]

So as the doubler, with a 5413 I would bid 6S over 5NT, but I would bid 5H over 5D in case partner has hearts and clubs.

A rare moment that I disagree with you :D

 

If partner has hearts and clubs he is presumably forcing to slam (since if we don't fit his major he must go to 6C... I can't see him passing 5M if we DO fit his major, but if we don't driving it to 6C). So if we bid 5S over 5D partner can bid 6C over this and we can correct to 6H.

[mikeh]

 

AJx Kxx Ax AQJxx. 6N is best, and 6♠ is fine, but 6♥ is horrible while the mundane 6♣ works out okay.

 

Axx KQx x AQJxxx 6♣ is the only slam that is favoured to make.

 

I'm unclear as to how these hands can comfortably get to 6♣ after a 5♦ call. Please explain. Are you suggesting we pass after ...5♦...(pass)....6♣...?

 

 

As I said in my initial post, I fully intend to pass 6♣.

 

Why would I not????? Partner will bid the cheapest playable trump suit over my cue, whether he takes my cue as two places to play or three. Thus I agree that he will bid a major with 4=5, but note that on my example hands he would bid 6♣ and that would in both cases (obviously, or I am really bad at constructing examples to advance my case) be a playable spot in contrast to your very poor 6♥ (assuming you commit to slam) or almost as bad (because low scoring and not risk-free) 5♥.

[luis]

1. Who the hell is LHO? If he can be relied upon having 8 diamonds, I might try 5♦. If not, I'll stick to 4♠ and hope to have guessed right.

 

2. Pard seems to have some sort of strong balanced hand. The priority is to hog the hand, so a 2NT Lebensohl must be the right bid :D Then we follow with some nr. of spades and chances are we get to play the hand :P

 

3. Who the heck pard thinks he is, bypassing 3NT just because "I didn't have a stopper, pard!!" Bah.. bid 5♣ and let HIM sort his way out of that. HA!

1. LHO is an unkown player, probably not a good player. Impossible to know what is 4♦ for him.

 

3. That's one of the interesting parts of the questions, what kind of hand with clubs bypasses 3NT? While opponents are unknown pd is -usully- very realiable.