Echognome Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 [hv=d=n&v=b&s=saxhakqxxxdcakxxx]133|100|Scoring: XIMPP - 1♣(1)1♠(2) - 1NT®2♦(2) - 2♥®2♠(2) - 2NT®3♣(2) - 3♦®3♥(3) - ?[/hv]® relay(1) 16+ any shape(2) shape showing (positive values = 9+ hcp, 2+ controls)(3) 5=1=5=2 Partner has given you a positive response to your 1♣ opening. You have a huge hand yourself, but a total misfit. Also note that partner did not open 1♠ with 5-5 shape and has shown 9+ hcp. Your options are: 3♠ = Demands controls and is followed by DCB3NT = To Play4♣ = Weak relay (bid 4♦ unless your points are outside your suits)4♦ = Termination to play in a suit4♥ = Keycard for spades4♠ = Keycard for diamonds The 4♣ bid might seem strange, but it only applies when partner has a very narrowly defined hand such as here when he didn't open with 5-5. What is your bidding plan from here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Tricky hand... Note that a grand is more than reasonable opposite as little as ♠ Kxxxx♥ J♦ xxxxx♣ QJ I'm torn about the right course of action. On the one hand, is tempting to cite this as a good hand for the exclusion DCB style that we were discussion last week. After, RR's 2♠ response, Relay asker would bid 3♦ asking for shape but excluding RR's second longest suit (Diamonds) from the DCB response. Relay responder would resolve shape with a 3NT bid. At this point in time, 4♣ would ask for slam points outside of Diamonds (For what its worth, I know that you don't currently play this style, but its an interesting example hand) The problem with the exlusion sequence is that A of Diamonds is a transferable value - I'm happy to throw a Spade on the Ace of Diamonds. As to the options that you have available to you: The keycard sequences are right out. These bids burn way too much bidding space and will never get you the "right" information. Partner has denied a hand with lots of controls and keycard will never let you find the round suit Jacks. I'm also not found of 4♣. The King of Spades and the Ace of Diamonds are critical cards. I don't know any of your followups after 4♣ - 4♦, but I suspect that you need to prioritize signoffs and setting strain. 3NT gives up on slam altogether... Partner will never be able to zoom when appropriate. By default, this would seem to force a 3♠ response. The bid is still far from perfect, but at least its low... One last question/comment: what style of preempts do you play in 1st/2nd seat? Does partner have an Muilderberg or Ekrens type preempt available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Tricky hand... Note that a grand is more than reasonable opposite as little as ♠ Kxxxx♥ J♦ xxxxx♣ QJ I am not sure why this is not a good hand for MisIry. But then, I only see one of the two hands. But just to demonstrate how misIry would work facing the hand Richard drew up.... If north decides not to bump the "preempt" over the 3♣ opener (which shows ♦ and weak, of clubs and a major strong), opener will show a two loser hand with Hearts/Clubs and no need for a diamond cover. North looking at JACK of hearts (which is a useful card) and QJ of of clubs (which is not only a sure cover (the Queen) but a solifiying card (JACK) will see slam is a great bet, and grand sland slam has good chance is partner has Ax of spades (partner has at most two losers, one is queen of clubs, and none in diamonds)... North will "cue" bid diamonds which ask if king of other suit (here spades) is useful. North will say yes, and responder will know north ahs a hand similar to the one he holds (he could be 2-5-1-5 with stiff ♦A, but he will hold AKxxx(x) of clubs and AKQxx(x) of diamonds. Still bidding the grand would require if partner has only 5♥, a 3-3 split, or partner having heart Ten, or partner being able to afford 1♥ ruff in your hand and be able to pull trumps, or a ♥-♠ squeeze. If North bumps the bidding to the 4 level south can still show a two loser two suiter, with no need for ♦. IF he bumpst to the five level, it is a guessing game. South will show the major,club two sutier,but the number of losers will be lost. Now, before we decide how horrible this hand was for MisIry, I suspect we need to see the responder hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I say it's a bad hand for Misiry because my understanding is that opener will get his hand across at 5♣ which is already too high! When I looked at this hand I thought one thing and one thing only... this hand is a horrible misfit. Partner has some values, so everyone's going to want to be slamming. I understand Richard's construction but I think that's asking for the perfect cards. Partner is not going to have KQJxx x Axxxx xx else he'd strain to open (we play a pretty aggressive style). Playing him for QJ of clubs is being overly optomistic. So I viewed this one simply as what is the right strain. I'm counting on a good score for not being too high in this auction. I'll post the responder hand after a couple more replies. NB: This is not to knock Misiry, just a hand that doesn't work well for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I say it's a bad hand for Misiry because my understanding is that opener will get his hand across at 5♣ which is already too high! When I looked at this hand I thought one thing and one thing only... this hand is a horrible misfit. Partner has some values, so everyone's going to want to be slamming. I understand Richard's construction but I think that's asking for the perfect cards. Partner is not going to have KQJxx x Axxxx xx else he'd strain to open (we play a pretty aggressive style). Playing him for QJ of clubs is being overly optomistic. So I viewed this one simply as what is the right strain. I'm counting on a good score for not being too high in this auction. I'll post the responder hand after a couple more replies. NB: This is not to knock Misiry, just a hand that doesn't work well for it. Actually, that 5♣ bid is not quite right... yes, yes, the online version of the notes says that..but opener rebids in opened suit (this case ♣) or ♠ to show ♣/♠ two suiter. So 5♣ would show 2 losers and spades and club, with no need for a ♦ stopper (reverse the majors, and 5♣ is right). With ♥ and ♣, the bidding can go slower. For instance, on this hand, 3♣ - 3♦? 3♥ = ♥/♣, 4 loser 3NT = ♥/♣, 3 loser 4♦ = ♥/♣, 2 loser, need ♦ cover 4♥ = ♥/♣, 2 loser, no need for ♦ cover 4NT = ♥/♣, 1 loser, need ♦ coveretc So here, the bidding would have been at 4♥ after a 3♦ response. It would have been at 4NT after a 4♦ response (4♥ over 4♦ would show 3 or 4 losers). I should also suggest, however, that I would not have responded 3♦ or 4♦ with the hand in question. I would have responded 3♠ forcing. If partner has a ♦ preempt hand, I am willing to bid with him, and if he has a two suiter, I know what they are, and I want to get my natural suit into the auction. When partner bids a new suit (rather than completing the transfer), raises of partners suit (4♠ here) or rebids of the "preemptive" suit (would be 4♦ here) show the weak hand. All other bids show a strong two suiter. Here, over 3♠, 3NT = ♣/♥ two suiter 3/4 loser4♣ = ♣/♠ two suiter, 3 or 4 loser (showing spade support)4♦ = ♦ preempt, no ♠ support4♥ = ♥/♣ two suiter, 2 loser need a generic ♦ cover4♠ = ♦ preempt, ♠ raise4NT = ♥/♣ two loser, no need for ♦ coverback on schedule, except 5♣ show black two suiter, any two losers. Did you get the word document discription of MisIry? I am sure most of the MisIry experimenters have it by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 When I looked at this hand I thought one thing and one thing only... this hand is a horrible misfit. Partner has some values, so everyone's going to want to be slamming. I understand Richard's construction but I think that's asking for the perfect cards. When I posted the perfect 7 count for grand, I wasn't necessarily arguing that it was realistic to get to seven with this hand. (I suspect that if you're getting to 7 opposite this hand, you're gonna be overboard on a lot of other hands) Rather, I think that this hand illustrates that signing off in 3NT and giving up on slam altogether may be overly pessimistic. There are significant risks regardless of what which path you chose to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 A good point indeed Richard. I'm usually told I'm too pessimistic on a lot of these hands. However, on this hand, isn't points in the short suits what you're looking for? I.e. ♣QJ or ♥J? Partner might not even count his ♥J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 ======================================== C:\BRBR\hannie.06.IMP-31.2.txt Produced by BRidgeBRowser on 20-Mar-06 ======================================== IMP-31 [space] [space] [space]inquiry [space] [space] Dlr: East [space] Board 2 [space] [space] S 8542 [space] [space] [space]Vul: N-S [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] H Q9874 [space] [space] rttmra [space] [space] [space] D T93 [space] [space] [space] dodiesis [space] [space] S AKQ93 [space] C 6 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] S JT76 [space] [space] [space] H [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]H T65 [space] [space] [space] D 74 [space] [space] [space] [space]hannie [space] [space] [space] D J65 [space] [space] [space] C JT9754 [space]S [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] C K32 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]H AKJ32 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]D AKQ82 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]C AQ8 [space] [space] [space] 17-Mar-06 [space]6:48:14 PM First [space]6:47:14 PM, Last [space]6:48:14 PM North [space] [space] [space]East [space] [space] [space] South [space] [space] [space]West [space] [space] [space] rttmra [space] [space] inquiry [space] [space]dodiesis [space] hannie [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]Pass [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] 2NT! [space] [space] [space] 3S [space] [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] 4NT! [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] 6H [space] [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] Pass [space] [space] [space] 1. club preempt or strong 2-suiter with !h 2. !h + !d, 2 losers, help in clubs useful Opening lead: SJ [space] [space]Result: Made 7 Score: 1010 [space] [space] [space] [space] Points: -5.50 1 [space]South [space]SJ, H2, S3, S5 2 [space]West [space] CA, [space]4, [space]6, [space]2 3 [space]West [space] C8, [space]9, H4, C3 4 [space]East [space] H8, [space]5, [space]A, S9 5 [space]West [space] CQ, [space]5, HQ, CK 6 [space]East [space] H7, [space]6, [space]K, C7 7 [space]West [space] HJ, SQ, H9, HT 8 [space]West [space] DA, [space]4, [space]3, [space]5 9 [space]West [space] DK, [space]7, [space]9, [space]6 10 [space]West [space] DQ, SK, DT, DJ ------------------------------------------ ======================================= Here is a good one for Misiry that I blew (isn't bridgebrowser neat, I was able to find this hand by looking for 6H contracts with hannie). Hannie opened 2NT - which was either preempt in clubs or strong two suiter with hearts and without clubs. Next hand bid 3♠ and I have easy pass. At this point, hannie has lots of bids with strong hand: DBL = shows spades and hearts. All other bids shows diamonds and hearts, in theory, 3NT would show worse D/H hand, 4C second worse, 4D third worse and so on. It is soooo much easier to show two suiters on this auction than if your partner bid. Hannie's jump to 4H here showed Red two suiter, two losers, needing a second round control in clubs. Here I blew it totally. I have second round control in clubs (the singleton) and I have a fitting honor is hearts (the queen). This covers his two losers. My "brave" leap to six hearts was a clear underbid. I have an easy 7H bid. Actually the fact that all spade/heart hands double 3S allow an expansion of the normal bidding tree. How might this balancing bidding go? 2N-2S-P-P-?DBL = ALL ♠/♥ two suiterPass = club preempt3NT = red two suiter 4 losers4♣ = red two suiter, 3 loser, need ♣ cover4♦= red two suiter, 3 loser, no need for ♣ cover4♥ = red two suiter, 3 loser, great heart suit, no need for ♣ cover4♠ = no longer need to show ♠ and ♥ so 2 loser, need club king would be better use4NT = 2 losers, need club ace5♣ = two losers need ♠ stopper5♦ 2 loser, none in clubs, none in ♠ and so on.Anyway, either way, we should be in seven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 [hv=d=n&v=b&s=saxhakqxxxdcakxxx]133|100|Scoring: XIMPP - 1♣(1)1♠(2) - 1NT®2♦(2) - 2♥®2♠(2) - 2NT®3♣(2) - 3♦®3♥(3) - ?[/hv]® relay(1) 16+ any shape(2) shape showing (positive values = 9+ hcp, 2+ controls)(3) 5=1=5=2 Partner has given you a positive response to your 1♣ opening. You have a huge hand yourself, but a total misfit. Also note that partner did not open 1♠ with 5-5 shape and has shown 9+ hcp. Your options are: 3♠ = Demands controls and is followed by DCB3NT = To Play4♣ = Weak relay (bid 4♦ unless your points are outside your suits)4♦ = Termination to play in a suit4♥ = Keycard for spades4♠ = Keycard for diamonds The 4♣ bid might seem strange, but it only applies when partner has a very narrowly defined hand such as here when he didn't open with 5-5. What is your bidding plan from here? In general, relaying works best when you have a balanced hand, is tolerable when you have something close to a balanced hand, and doesn't work that well when you have singleton's or even worse voids. It would be nice if you could have switched to natura, or a reverse relay scheme, instead of relaying. (Note its really hard to come up with a good reverse relay scheme that handles both 2 suiters and 3 suiters, so usually relay breaks can be used with one or the other but not both). Inferentially your partner is probably much more likely to open a 5-5 9/10 count with good spades than with bad spades, so we have to expect values outside of spades, although knowing that doesn't help you much. You basically need to know about quacks in your suits, and now you just have to guess. I would ask controls and move toward slam only if the answer is less than 3. Opposite 3 I would sign off in 4H. The 4C relay is another good option if J and Qx will excite him, but I suspect that isn't what you have in mind by lots of wastage in the short suits... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 I would not have relayed at all. I rebid 2♥ because I don't want to miss a potential seven of a minor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 I would not have relayed at all. I rebid 2♥ because I don't want to miss a potential seven of a minor. what auction are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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