Unravel this auction

[Elianna]

I would like some input about a not so difficult auction.

 

Your partner is a very experienced player. We had a slight disagreement about what went on here:

 

Opponents all pass:

 

A.......B

1♦ - 1♠

3♦ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♦

 

1) What would you expect each player to have here now? Specifically, how many Spades does A have? What is B's shape (and what leeway do you have in your answer)?

 

2) Has a trump suit been set? If so, what?

 

3) I think that it's pretty clear by now that you're heading to a game. When were you game forcing? (If you disagree with my first statement, feel free to say "nowhere.")

 

4) For fun, if you had to make a guess at the likely outcome (without seeing the hands) what would you guess that it was? (contract and result?)

[Kalvan14]

1. Opener should have 16-18 HCP, with 6 good diamonds; the spade support is unclear yet: opener might have Hxx yet, but I would not be surprised by Hx (in any case, no good stopper for clubs). Advancer: 4 spades [can still have 5, in a cramped auction like this], and values in hearts. No values in clubs (the first re-bid - 3♥ - might have been an advance cue bid, but in principle is looking for 3NT. Hx (or xxx) in diamonds.

 

2. Diamonds have been set for trumps.

 

3. 3♥ is GF

 

4. 5♦ is my best bet. Made on the nose.

[han]

1) I'd expect that opener typically has Hx of spades. Responder has a gameforcing hand with some diamond support and something in hearts. Responder does not necessarily show slam interest, she might just be looking for the best game.

 

2) You have found a diamond fit, but I would consider 4S now as a suggestion to play there.

 

3) 3H creates the gameforce. Although there might be hands where responder would like to try for 3NT if partner can bid it and else stop in 4D, this is too narrow in my opinion. With such a hand responder should just bid a game over 3S (if you bid 3NT over 3S, doesn't that suggest worries about clubs?).

 

4) I guess 4D+3, these auctions can be tricky and even very experienced players can go wrong (I think that passing is wrong).

[iggygork]

Hmm, is this really a "not so difficult auction?" Let's see:

 

1. 3♥ could have been anything from an advance cue for diamonds to a genuine heart suit, with strength ranging from a mangy 5-5-0-3 hand to a grand slam try in diamonds. It was not a game force, but definitely a one round force.

 

2. 4♦ established the game force, but did it set the trumps? If you do not have some conventional way of showing the Bridge World Death Hand (3 cards in pard's major, 6 cards in your minor and 16-18 HCP), then 3♠ is ambiguous, it could be Hx or xxx or even Hxx. Hence 4♦ is also ambiguous, I think we need another round of bidding to find out what suit was set as trumps. If I were to take a guess, I would say diamonds (with spades and a good hand, B could have bid 3NT which cannot be to play so must be something else, why the 3♥ bid if 3NT was playable?).

 

3. B is anywhere from 5-3-4-1 to a strong 6-4-0-3 (and he is cueing his void now for spades, if your system disallows this cue across from a semi-solid or better suit as shown by 1♦-3♦, then hands with diamond voids are not possible of course). I think the prototypical hand for "B" is 5-4-3-1.

 

4. For fun, I will guess 7D down 1.

 

5. For extra fun, can I guess the identity of "B"? :)

[han]

Having thought about this some more, I am now fairly confident that the result is either 4D+2 or 4D+3. Think about it, why did Elianna post this? Clearly B made a slam try and A passed.

[iggygork]

Having thought about this some more, I am now fairly confident that the result is either 4D+2 or 4D+3. Think about it, why did Elianna post this? Clearly B made a slam try and A passed.

I was thinking more like a tug-of-war between ♠ and ♦, with the disagreement being resolved at the 7 level. I just like higher altitude action better than four of a minor drama I guess.

[Kalvan14]

Having thought about this some more, I am now fairly confident that the result is either 4D+2 or 4D+3. Think about it, why did Elianna post this? Clearly B made a slam try and A passed.

Not again a hand where opener gets cold feet: whatever the outcome (even 4♦ just made), I'll refrain from playing again with anyone who passes 4♦

[mike777]

1)3H was game force

2) spades are trump

3) 4D is a cue showing A or K of D, not shortness.

4) Responder denies club control.

 

This brings up an old debate, many feel the top priority of responder is to describe their shape, I disagree. This is important but most important is having an auction that will lead to a making/winning contract. If you have D support just bid 4D over 3D which sets up a slam auction in D. Bidding your hand perfectly but confusing your partner is losing bridge.

[Kalvan14]

Top priority should be not to miss 3NT, if it is there. Note that after 1D-1S-3D-3H-3N, advancer can always force (if justified).

OTOH, if 3♥ was an advance cue, 4♦ fixes trumps, and denies clubs.

 

Even if advancer has 5 spades, and Hx in diamonds, a slam in diamonds is equal or better than a slam in spades (in a possible 5-2 fit).

[Guest Jlall]

I would like some input about a not so difficult auction.

 

Your partner is a very experienced player. We had a slight disagreement about what went on here:

 

Opponents all pass:

 

A.......B

1♦ - 1♠

3♦ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♦

 

1) What would you expect each player to have here now? Specifically, how many Spades does A have? What is B's shape (and what leeway do you have in your answer)?

 

2) Has a trump suit been set? If so, what?

 

3) I think that it's pretty clear by now that you're heading to a game. When were you game forcing? (If you disagree with my first statement, feel free to say "nowhere.")

 

4) For fun, if you had to make a guess at the likely outcome (without seeing the hands) what would you guess that it was? (contract and result?)

1) A will have 2 or 3 spades. B's shape is 5431, 5422, perhaps even 5323 or 4333 or 4324(xxxx clubs?) (probing for 3N). I'm sure there are some shapes im leaving out.

 

2) No. Spades and diamonds are both in play. A diamond fit is 100 %, a spade fit is a possibility. I would expect A to bid 4S if he has 3 of them.

 

3) 3H set up a game force.

[kenrexford]

This is a classic auction type where a little discussion between partners can be invaluable.

 

[This specific problem might have been avoided with a nice meaning to a jump reverse. 1D-P-1S-P-3H can show a three-piece spade fragment and a long diamond suit. However, that might be a tad rich here.]

 

In any event, if Opener could have three spades, 3S should show three spades. When this occurs, Responder has a problem. If 3H was intended as a probe for 3NT, 3NT is optional, allowing Opener to pull without club help. But, what if 3H was either (1) an advance cue in support of diamonds, or (2) checkback on spades?

 

Flag bids help here. Style of flagging is unknown. But, I personally like 4C to flag the lower suit (diamonds) and 4D to flag the higher suit (spades).

 

Assuming this thinking, 4D confirmed spades and was somewhat quantitative, akin to a LTTC call, inviting slam. 4C would confirm diamonds.

 

An alternative here would be for 4D to always confirm diamonds, with 4C confirming the "other suit." This treatment is flawed if the two suits are the majors, but it works for all other situations (bid the minor, flag the major). When the majors are in contention, then, you revert to clubs for hearts and diamonds for spades.

 

One last flag approach I have heard of is for clubs to always flag hearts, diamonds always spades. If both minors are in contention, bid the minor. If a minor-major disagreement, flag the major according to the rule, with the other minor flagging the focus minor. This seems convoluted, but it works just as well.

[P_Marlowe]

1) 3D showed a 6 card suit, but denied a 4 card heart suit,

3S showed secondary support, but could be made on only

two cards

3H, showed a 5 card spade suit, but only a stopper in heart,

i.e. a strong 3 card suit is possible, even only 2 cards.

2) yes, but it is unclear which suit (spade or diamond),

without discussion, diamond

3) 3H was game forcing

4) 4S or 5D

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[cherdano]

As for 4), apart from 4D + 1/2/3, there is the possibility that it continued 4♥-4♠. Opener passed this, because he thought 3♠ set trumps, whereas responder thought 4♠ was a cuebid in support of diamonds.

[Chamaco]

A.......B

1♦ - 1♠

3♦ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♦

 

1) What would you expect each player to have here now?  Specifically, how many Spades does A have?  What is B's shape (and what leeway do you have in your answer)?

 

A has a minimum reverse. The number of spades is unclear, 3S might simply be a totally artificial squeeze cuebid to checkback for a club control as a NT probe.

A might have a void or singleton spade.

 

B shape is not so clear, but he should have 5+ spades without values club in clubs. 3H should be only a notrump probe.

4D is not necessaily a slam try, could be only a GF game that:

- has no club stopper for NT

- wants to keep 4S in the picture if A has belated spades support

- has diamond support/tolerance.

 

A typical hand for B:

AJxxx-KJx-Txx-xx

 

2) Has a trump suit been set?  If so, what?

 

Not strictly. B has probably a fit for diamonds but he is likely to be looking to play 4S

 

3) I think that it's pretty clear by now that you're heading to a game.  When were you game forcing? (If you disagree with my first statement, feel free to say "nowhere.")

 

3H set a GF.

 

4) For fun, if you had to make a guess at the likely outcome (without seeing the hands) what would you guess that it was?  (contract and result?)

 

Don't know.

If I had to guess a potential disaster, that would be that A misinterpret the 4D bid as slam interest rather than simply a way to keep 4S in the picture, and we end up in 6D down 1/2 when 4S was making.

 

Another possible disaster is that B interprets the 3S bid as showing tolerance instead of a club stopper checkback.

[luke warm]

Not again a hand where opener gets cold feet: whatever the outcome (even 4♦ just made), I'll refrain from playing again with anyone who passes 4♦

evidently your partner(s) have never made bidding mistakes... and evidently, neither have you

[helene_t]

3♥ can be natural, or it can be a cue agreeing diamonds. 4♦ showed the latter so diamonds are trump.

 

3♠ suggests 3-card spades support but A could have a 2263 if that shape is not always treated as balanced.

[Codo]

A.......B

1♦ - 1♠

3♦♦ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♦

 

1) What would you expect each player to have here now?  Specifically, how many Spades does A have?  What is B's shape (and what leeway do you have in your answer)?

 

A has 6+ Diamonds, 3 spades and around 16-18 HCPS

 

B has 5 spades, values in H but not in Club and a slam interersted hand

 

As Mike pointed out, with a diamond fit, B could have bid 4 Diamond instead of 3 Heart and with a blanced hand with no interesst, he could bid 3 NT after 3 Spade.

Pd should understand this as a "club problem", else, why didn`t bid B 3 NT direct?

 

2. The trumps suit is Spades, with just xx in Spade, Opener could have bid 3 NT with Club values and 4 Diamond without.

 

3. 3 Heart was the game force

 

4. 4 Diamond was a cuebid, so a high honour in Pds suit, this must be a slam try.

 

5. The bidding died quick. They reached 4 Diamond + 3, because A has a complete different view of the auction then me.

 

But this could happen, after all, a lot of people disagree here.

[pbleighton]

"1)3H was game force"

 

Agree - it showed 4H and 5S.

 

"2) spades are trump

3) 4D is a cue showing A or K of D, not shortness."

 

Agree.

 

"4) Responder denies club control."

Not necessarily, but likely.

 

Likely contract: 6 spades is slightly more likely than 4 or 5.

 

Peter

[kenberg]

There are a variety of strong sounding auctions where there could be an agreement that when NT appears unplayable then you can exit in 4 of a minor. Mostly I think the consensus is against this since it really complicates slam tries. However, with discussion, I would allow one exception here: If, over 3H, A bids 4D I think this should be passable. Thus the game force was established when A bid anything other than 4D over 3H. Without discussion, I would agree that the game force was established after 3H.

 

 

As for shape, if I were A I would play B for a stiff club. With two quick losers in clubs I would expect a bid of 4S over 3S. From B's viewpoint: It seems A could bid 3S on anything from Qx to KJx of spades, since in the latter case the hand is too strong to raise 1S to 2S, and a raise directly to 3S requires a fourth spade. However, the fact that B is slamming (which I think 4D is doing) suggests his spades are adequate, or he hopes they are adequate, to play aganst a modest holding from A, so B's holding is such that A cannot have the stronger holding.

 

So: I think spades are trump, the 4D bid shows something of a fit (not necessarily an ace), a stiff club, good spades, and an interest in slam.

 

I ran this analysis past intelligence experts and they said it was a slam dunk.

 

Ken

[joshs]

I would like some input about a not so difficult auction.

 

Your partner is a very experienced player. We had a slight disagreement about what went on here:

 

Opponents all pass:

 

A.......B

1♦ - 1♠

3♦ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♦

 

1) What would you expect each player to have here now? Specifically, how many Spades does A have? What is B's shape (and what leeway do you have in your answer)?

 

2) Has a trump suit been set? If so, what?

 

3) I think that it's pretty clear by now that you're heading to a game. When were you game forcing? (If you disagree with my first statement, feel free to say "nowhere.")

 

4) For fun, if you had to make a guess at the likely outcome (without seeing the hands) what would you guess that it was? (contract and result?)

1. A has 2 or 3 spades

B can have lots of shapes: 5431 5422 5521 are the most common of them, but really responder might be: 4333 or even 4342 or 5332 with not much in clubs, strong hearts, and not enough to drive to a diamond slam and doubt as to if you belonged in NT or in diamonds or in spades

 

2. Well diamonds are temporaily trumps, but a 4 spade bid now is an offer to play. I don't think 4H is an offer to play, but others may disagree with me on that.

 

3. Any bid over 3D is game forcing

 

4. I am betting on 5D making 7 ;) OK I am not betting my money...

 

Josh

[han]

I agree with Kenberg that the auction 1D-1S-3D-3H-4D is passable (the 3D bidder has already limited her hand), so technically 3H did not set up a gameforce.

 

I agree with Josh that any bid over 1D-1S-3D is gameforcing (except for the example above).

[inquiry]

I agree with Kenberg that the auction 1D-1S-3D-3H-4D is passable (the 3D bidder has already limited her hand), so technically 3H did not set up a gameforce.

 

I agree with Josh that any bid over 1D-1S-3D is gameforcing (except for the example above).

I disagree. 3♥ established game force (not quasi game force), so 4♦ is 100% forcing.

 

I am having trouble imagining opener's hand where he can jump to 3♦ and then over 3♥ rebid 4♦ (not 3NT, not 4♣, not even 3♠). If I had to guess, I would guess 4♦ (suit bid three times once with a jump) denies any intrest in ♠, but of course responder might trott out 4♠ in an attempt to rescue self from diamonds. Here after these 3♦ bids, diamonds are turmps, and if I was responder and I had a club control, I would be thinking about possible slam in diamonds regardless of my diamond support.

 

So any bid by responder is now a cue-bid agreeign diamonds. The contract will be 5, 6 or 7 ♦.... five diamonds if responder lacks a club control (and that bid will come now over 4♦), and with a club control, responder will cue-bid major suit control at this point.

 

I would guess 5♦ with responder raising on a void in dimaonds and no club control, making.

[han]

Ben, I agree that 3H in theory creates a gameforce, and that the auction 1D-1S-3D-3H-4D is very unusual. Opener has denied Hx or better in spades, a club stopper, 4 hearts as well as serious extras for diamonds.

 

Given that opener has limited himself already, isn't it possible that responder decides to pass 4D after all this negative information? Have you never passed a GF auction below game after I had limited my hand and it became clear that our hands were terribly unsuitable for game? I think that such passes are possible and not a breach of partnership discipline.

[cherdano]

Ben, I agree that 3H in theory creates a gameforce, and that the auction 1D-1S-3D-3H-4D is very unusual. Opener has denied Hx or better in spades, a club stopper, 4 hearts as well as serious extras for diamonds.

I don't agree opener has denied all of this. Why can't opener have a hand that is maximum for 3D, and KNOWS he wants to play in diamonds, and wants to start cue-bidding, but make a strong statement about strain before doing so? Ax xx AKQJxxx Kx? (Yes 3♦ was an underbid, but 3NT is also a little flawed with the heart weakness.)

 

I don't think I would ever pass this, simply because 3D is a little wide-ranging, and I don't think 4D shows a minimum for the 3D bid, I think it just shows diamonds.

 

Arend

[han]

Opener can't have Kx in clubs, this is a clear 3NT bid over 3H (and yes, 3D was an underbid). With club shortness you could cuebid 4C (this can't be natural as you would bid 3NT), so 4D basically guarantees 2 club losers off the top. The hand you showed also has Hx in spades, which is quite unlikely (especially for you and me). I think that it will be tough for you to construct a reasonable hand that has slam interest and rebids 4D.