Simple Auction

[Guest Jlall]

Had a big accident in a major event once with this seemingly simple auction. Many experts were asked and there seemed to be no consensus.

 

2S p 3S p p X. What is X?

[hrothgar]

First and foremost, I don't think this should be takeout... There are too many ways where a light takeout double can go wrong. In particular, if they opps know that you play a very light balancing double style they should be able to exploit this.

 

From my perspective there are two potential treatments:

 

1. Penalty

2. "Values" (or alternatively, cards) Ideally, you'd have the right values for a 2NT overcall without a Spade stopper.

 

I suspect that treatment 2 is more common, however, treatment 1 is much easier to field. I suspect that treatment 2 could lead to some severe tempo issues...

[MickyB]

Was just talking about this with Owen, cos my opps had the same thing (but with a weak 2♦) come up today.

 

A very good player made a double on a sick 3325 11 count, which I think is insane. I'm thinking it should either be penalties, or it should be two-way (either penalties or something along the lines of a 4405 8 count). I'd normally double immediately with (non-min) values for a 2NT overcall but no stop.

[pbleighton]

In the absence of an agreement, I would have to assume a light pure takeout, 1444 or 0(445). I agree with Richard that this isn't a good idea, however. Penalty seems right. Undiscussed, would you risk this at the table, though?

 

Peter

[000002]

one of the chinese national coach ever bid a similar contested :

(1♠) -p-(3♠)-p

(p)---3nt

his hand is 3=1=4=5 and ♠ is xxx.

 

i deem this double is ♥+a MINOR,3415 genus.HCPs is between 12-17.

[han]

I think that one could play this in more than one reasonable way, but I think it is absolutely necessary to have clear agreements about this with your partner. In my regular partnerships this was absolutely penalty.

[benlessard]

To play this as light take-out X is a mistake. Whatever partnership agreement i cannot visualize the perfect 0445 that is enough to X on 3s but not enough on 2s.

 

 

So if my "one-time" partner pull this one out hes gonna have some explaining to do... after the match of course.

 

 

Why does the opps cannot fall into a bad trumps break ?. Even if playing 2 level X as penalty i can see some hands that wont X 2s but that will X 3s.

 

 

So since its our only time we can do a penalty X and with today preempts giving away penalty (sometimes juicy) is definitely not the way to go.

 

 

In fact im expecting no expert to go wrong on this. And if i asked my regulars partners about this they will say "Ben do you feel allright ? are you on medication ?"

 

 

 

Responder with 3 little didnt pull and they make. The doubler had a weak 0445 and thought my partner cannot go wrong on this cauz he will have 3 trumps and he will figure that is must be T-O.

 

 

beside why not 3nt for 2 suit light T-O

[pclayton]

I remember a panel show at Anaheim 2000 and Haig Tchamitch said it was penalty.

 

I haven't seen or heard anyone since say this.

[Free]

At first thought I'd say penalty, but there's a lot to say for takeout with 3♠ which couldn't dbl in first place. Still I like to penalize opps for being too agressive against us :lol:

[whereagles]

Had a big accident in a major event once with this seemingly simple auction. Many experts were asked and there seemed to be no consensus.

 

2S p 3S p p X. What is X?

According to Robson/Segal's definitions, it is penalty.

 

If you don't have any definitions, it's is a mess :P

[Chamaco]

Without other agreement, it sounds strange that a takeout hand that was too weak to double 2S, is now ready to reopen over 3S.

 

Alright there might be a few hands where 4th hand had to pass with length in opps suit and reopening with little hcp would collect a number, but I doubt the frequency of such layouts would be high.

 

All in all my vote is for penalty.

[cherdano]

What hand would make a penalty double here that couldn't bid 2NT earlier?

[Guest Jlall]

What hand would make a penalty double here that couldn't bid 2NT earlier?

Lots of hands. Some hands are trap passes of 2S, some are unbalanced, some can beat 3S in their hand but don't even have the strength for a 2N bid.

 

The real question is how frequent it is that we have a penalty X and they have bid 2S p 3S. The answer lies in the opponents.

 

At the table I had some hand with 3 small spades and like a 14 count(I forget the exact hand). Partner passed, thinking his void confirmed that this was a penalty X. 4H was cold and so was 3S. I was surprised at the time to see that there was no consensus on what this auction meant. At least partner and I have an agreement now :P

[luis]

For me it is both minors, since 2NT over 2♠ is natural.

 

Luis

[Winstonm]

If you have a void in their suit it is penalty - otherwise it is minor-oriented takeout.

:blink:

 

Winston

[cherdano]

What hand would make a penalty double here that couldn't bid 2NT earlier?

Lots of hands. Some hands are trap passes of 2S, some are unbalanced, some can beat 3S in their hand but don't even have the strength for a 2N bid.

 

The real question is how frequent it is that we have a penalty X and they have bid 2S p 3S. The answer lies in the opponents.

Do the hands you are thinking of contain 5 spades? I can't imagine many with 4 of them. ♠QJTx and AK A outside? Can't even be sure we beat them, and almost strong enough for 2N. KQTx and A,KQ outside? About the same. Unbalanced hands, let me try: QJ98 x AKxxx Axxx? Almost good enough for 3♦, not quite sure we can beat them. Trap passes? Well as you say, this depends on the opponents. I haven't yet had a trap pass and LHO raise to the 3-level...

 

Assuming that opponent's don't raise to 3♠ on an 8-card fit without reason, it seems to me that penalizing them is a very very small target. Whereas I could imagine many hands (minors!) that don't have an initial X but can see a double partscore swing when selling out to 3♠.

 

Of course, against players who might be in a 5-2 fit...

 

Arend

[Guest Jlall]

Distributional minors might balance with 3N maybe?

 

I agree that penalty is a very small target. That's why, at the table, I assumed it was takeout :blink:

[joshs]

There is certainly no consensus here. I have always played this differently than 2 level balances. Over the 2 level balance, when they have 8 trumps, we practically always have at least an 8 card fit, which makes competing to 3 over 2 lawful, so it makes sense to be able to x agressively for takeout. Over a 3 level balance, when they probably have 9, but might only have 8, 18 total trumps is really not guaranteed (anyone know the odds, assuming they have a 9 card fit?), so I don't find the risk here worth it and play this x as the rare penalty x. My hand type is usually 3/4 strong trumps and often a singleton outside and about a 15 count, hence no 2N overcall, although it might just be:

AQT9 xx Axxx Axx

 

Josh

[000002]

I tend to support T/O,the reason is:

 

1\the ♠void partner has a 5cards suit,and you have likely opposite 4cards.it means the penalty needs 2-3Ace.

2\many times,3♠ raiser has 2card ♠ only,with 1 honor.

3\ follwing (2♠)-p-(3♠)-x, it need 11HCPs+,assume (2♠)-p-(3♠)-p-(p)-x is penalty,we hardly have a game when i can't overcall 2nt.How many HCPS be need when we play on 4level without ♠ waste point in this case?21+,y?it's very frequent since opps is under 20HCPs usually.

 

eager to learn why use penalty double farther more.

[Chamaco]

There is certainly no consensus here. I have always played this differently than 2 level balances. Over the 2 level balance, when they have 8 trumps, we practically always have at least an 8 card fit, which makes competing to 3 over 2 lawful, so it makes sense to be able to x agressively for takeout. Over a 3 level balance, when they probably have 9, but might only have 8, 18 total trumps is really not guaranteed (anyone know the odds, assuming they have a 9 card fit?), so I don't find the risk here worth it and play this x as the rare penalty x. My hand type is usually 3/4 strong trumps and often a singleton outside and about a 15 count, hence no 2N overcall, although it might just be:

AQT9 xx Axxx Axx

 

Josh

I am on the same wavelength, and here is more or less my lines of thoughts.

Comments are appreciated !

 

While I understand that some support to DBL, this sounds strange to me *when the bidding has gotten so high*.

If a hand cannot DBL for takeout at his first turn, and doubles for takeout at a later round, this is usually just a competitive double.

 

How many times do we want to us a takeout double to compete at the 4 level (usually a partscore) when pard did not show any sign of life ?

Many times this just means handing opps the axe, to decide whether to double us, or, alternatively, going down undoubled but 3S was also down.

 

Hence, I lean towards treating these 3 level balancing doubles differently from 2-level balancing double, e.g.: if my pard had an available bid at the 3-level (say opps had a HEART fit and not spades), the I would use DBL as T/o, but from 3S and higher, I think that hands that will benefit from competing at the 4+ level will be less frequent than hands that indeed want to punish.

 

Both hand types (T/o and penalty) will probably be rare though.

[joker_gib]

For me it is both minors, since 2NT over 2♠ is natural.

 

Luis

Why not bid 3NT with both minors, Luis ?

 

Alain