Gerardo Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 To make clear whi is stalling on opps' claim to get it averaged. Looks like a good idea to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 It has been shown in other debates that the common (and reasonable) practice of adjusting boards to the result likely to be obtained is (technically) illegal when it is a case of slow play and time then elapsing. However, when a claim is made then play stops and in ruling on a contested claim, the Director adjudicates the result of the board as equitably as possible to both sides, but any doubtful points shall be resolved against the claimer (Law 70A, WBF Online Laws). So I believe the Laws give the Director sufficient powers and there is no need for the software to highlight a slow or non-acceptee of a claim. I actually feel that this would be detrimental to the enjoyment of most. Although it may appear to fix one problem, it could also be used to pressure players into accepting claims before they've had the time to examine it properly. So I'd vote against this. p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 If the declarer has potential loser outstanding knowing who rejected the claim could easily be UI and secure the contract. The TD should be able to manage this reasonably easily and remind people of time remaining. I don’t believe this is a significant problem when the TD has a presence at the tables and people know obvious cases will be adjusted. This is of course only possible if the TD is not playing. I don’t think changes to tournaments should be made to accommodate playing TD’s when it is possibly detrimental to the game in general. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 i thought the rule basically said that the declarer need to restate his line of play to the TD when called to the table, then the TD can chat with the declarer as to what his intentions are.....and proceed from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbreath Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 hi The claim mechanism is flawed in other ways. In a recent tourney a declarer in 4Major claimed all remaining tricks after defence had taken 1st 4 tricks. The claim was rejected 'cos Jxxx trumps in one hand. Declarer simply finessed the J on 2nd round .. a play that would be strictly prohibited in f2f play in the context of the claim.I didnt call the director 'cos normal play would have revealed the split ..but is still a breach of the rules to play the hand this way after an inaccurate or incomplete claim.Rdgs Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 hi The claim mechanism is flawed in other ways. In a recent tourney a declarer in 4Major claimed all remaining tricks after defence had taken 1st 4 tricks. The claim was rejected 'cos Jxxx trumps in one hand. Declarer simply finessed the J on 2nd round .. a play that would be strictly prohibited in f2f play in the context of the claim.I didnt call the director 'cos normal play would have revealed the split ..but is still a breach of the rules to play the hand this way after an inaccurate or incomplete claim.Rdgs DogI think the claim mechanism is as good as it can be for on-line play. If you are playing in a tourney then there is a TD to resolve problems: for non-tourney play it speeds up play and, if someone takes advantage of a rejected claim, you can always leave their table at the end of the hand. According to the rules no play is permitted when there is a contested claim. However, as pointed out, if normal play would find the bad break then declarer will get the benefit of this. E. Unstated Line of Play (Finesse or Drop)The Director shall not accept from claimer any unstated line of play the success of which depends upon finding one opponent rather than the other with a particular card, unless an opponent failed to follow to the suit of that card before the claim was made, or would subsequently fail to follow to that suit on any normal line of play; or unless failure to adopt this line of play would be irrational. In the final analysis, if you really care about this then you have to play in tourneys where you have some confidence in the directing staff. p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc_jo Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Hello,as far as I know ,the claim can be made only if there are no trumps oustanding(declarer may have forgotten it) and if the contract depends on a finesse that is a guess.Declarer has to say:draw the trumps or I'll take the finesse that way.The Td should penalize IMO people who violate these rules. :P Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 Hello,as far as I know ,the claim can be made only if there are no trumps oustanding(declarer may have forgotten it) and if the contract depends on a finesse that is a guess.Declarer has to say:draw the trumps or I'll take the finesse that way.The Td should penalize IMO people who violate these rules. :) Jo This post appears to be internally inconsistent. On the one hand it suggests that you are not allowed to claim when there is an outstanding trump (this is supported by neither the Laws nor software, by the way). Then it goes on to advise on the correct procedure for claiming in just such an event. There is no substitute for referring to the Laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 Hello,as far as I know ,the claim can be made only if there are no trumps oustanding(declarer may have forgotten it) and if the contract depends on a finesse that is a guess.Declarer has to say:draw the trumps or I'll take the finesse that way.The Td should penalize IMO people who violate these rules. :) JoThe rule on an outstanding trump is rule 70C, which reads. C. There Is an Outstanding TrumpWhen a trump remains in one of the opponents’ hands, the Director shall award a trick or tricks to the opponents if: 1. Failed to Mention Trumpclaimer made no statement about that trump, and2. Was Probably Unaware of Trumpit is at all likely that claimer at the time of his claim was unaware that a trump remained in an opponent’s hand, and3. Could Lose a Trick to the Trumpa trick could be lost to that trump by any normal play.The rules state that for the purpose of Laws 69, 70 and 71 “normal” includes play that would be careless or inferior for the class of player involved, but not irrational. But this if trumps were not mentioned suggest that trumps can notbe pulled (the forgotten trump possibility). Also take close look at rule 70C2... "was probably unaware of the outstanding trump(s)." This gives the director some flexibility in intrepreting the application of rule 70C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebound Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 What cracks me up about that is when someone has rejected your claim on the basis of an outstanding trump when there is no choice but to follow suit to all the remaining cards. It'd be different if you couldn't see all 4 hands following a claim, but some are rejected out of hand for no reason other than, "well I still have a trump". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnKryten Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 There are a lot of sloppy claimers. I tend to reject those claims in a tourney regardless of whether there really is a loser or not. If there's a trump left, or a finesse to be made, or a 3-2 break that needs to happen, it is the claimer's responsibility to make it clear what he is claiming, and what his line is. For example, if declarer hits the claim button with Jxxx trumps still out I'm going to reject that claim. If I reject his claim only when trumps don't break, I'm telling declarer how to play. Given BBO's current claim implementation, rejecting the claim seems to be the sensible thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyot Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 In a tournament, I reject a bad claim AND call the director. It is of no use to just reject the claim and then let the board be finished. The only problem is that some directors don't know the rules properly :P - once this happenned to me, I called a director and he just said "finish the board" by which time the declarer realized there was something wrong and played it safe :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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