Endplayed in the bidding part II

[luis]

If you read part I of this thread you got this interesting hand:

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=shxdktxxxxckjtxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Pd opens 1♠ showing 14+ among your options were 1NT showing 0-9 any shape. This was choosen by many posters and was also the bid I choose at the table.

 

Since this was a team match I will post our auction and the auction at the other table playing 2/1 you can participate in one or both.

 

Playing Fantunes

1♠ - 1NT

2♣* - 2♦

3♠

 

2♣ was any 18+ hand or natural (you guess)

2♦ showed 6-9 and is game forcing when pd has 18+ (there was no better option)

3♠ shows 18+ one suited hand with spades (you are in a GF now) (2♠ would have been 14-17 with spades and clubs)

 

Playing 2/1

1♠ - 1NT

3♠

 

In both scenarios your options have more or less the same meaning even when the context is slightly different.

 

3NT is to play as well as 4♠

4♥ is natural showing long hearts

4♣ would be a control with spade support same for 4♦

4NT of course is RKCB and 5 of a minor is exclusion RKCB

 

Your turn :-)

[Free]

Pfff what a painful hand! But we'll see Phil breakdancing since we got a 2m rebid (artificial, but that wasn't specified)! :rolleyes:

 

I'll just signoff in 4♠ and hope for the best: might be down, but there might be a minor slam... Blame it on the system, nothing's perfect.

[luis]

Pfff what a painful hand! But we'll see Phil breakdancing since we got a 2m rebid (artificial, but that wasn't specified)! :rolleyes:

 

I'll just signoff in 4♠ and hope for the best: might be down, but there might be a minor slam... Blame it on the system, nothing's perfect.

I'm not going to tell you what I bid but let's give you more information, your pd has been your pd for 5 years and the recipe for a long partnership has been to make fun of the stupid things we bridge players do from time to time. So before bidding 4♠ you can imagine your pd explaining to your teammates

"Luis got a 6-6 hand in the minors, he bid NT first and then spades"

or

"If we are playing inverted bridge, bid hearts first the spades to show a 1-0 two suiter"

or worst things.

 

Do you bid 4♠ and stand for the jokes? :-)

[Walddk]

4♠, and while tabling my hand, I'll say:

 

"Sorry all, I have an urgent appointment at my dentist's. Hope the TD can take over".

 

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

4S.

 

I will stand the jokes as I always do,

hopefully they stop aftr the event is

finished.

 

Marlowe

 

PS: The only other option would be

6m, you will be the hero, if the bid

works.

[Al_U_Card]

In 2/1, the 3S bid is not forcing to me, is it for others?

[P_Marlowe]

In 2/1, the 3S bid is not forcing to me, is it for others?

No, but it makes sense, if you upgrade the req.

to show 18+, it usually starts around 16+.

 

There may be an implication if 2C is Gazilli / Bart (?!)

or whatever, I dont know those conventions.

Marlowe

[Gerben42]

Fantunes Gazilli starts at 18+. Anyway we're in a GF situation if you like it or not <_<

 

4♠ hitting the brakes. I've already shown 6 - 9. Now I show I don't like this.

[inquiry]

How does the auction go if I bid, as I proposed in my original thread, 3C over 1S? (and I rebid 4C over partners anticipated 3D bid).

[awm]

This auction seems like pretty much a disaster so far. Here's my thoughts:

 

(1) Playing Fantoni-Nunes system, I would've responded 2♦ initially. This will probably make the subsequent auction substantially easier.

(2) If I subbed in for someone playing Fantoni-Nunes who already responded 1NT, then I would rebid 2NT over 2♣ gazilli. This should show a weak hand with both minors. I will then raise opener's "minor suit preference" to the five-level. Hopefully this shows a very distributional weak hand with both minors.

(3) Having responded 1NT and then 2♦, the situation seems more like a suicide squeeze than an endplay -- why have I refused to show either of my two suits given two opportunities? How about if I cuebid 4♥ and then pass partner's minor suit cue... this might actually give us the best shot at winning the board... but it's so anti-partnership that I feel I must bid 4♠ instead.

(4) Playing 2/1 game force, I would've made an invitational jump shift in one of the minors (if we play that). If 3-minor would be something else (weak, strong, bergen, whatever) then I'd respond 1NT and pass opener's 3♠ rebid.

 

By the way, I find it amusing that some people who happily open 1♠ on KQxxx Axxxx xx x (showing 12+ points) refuse to make a 2/1 bid that shows 10+ points holding this hand. Six-six is very strong -- surely I can add a king for shape? Not to mention that any other option will make it virtually impossible to show my suits.

[luis]

How does the auction go if I bid, as I proposed in my original thread, 3C over 1S? (and I rebid 4C over partners anticipated 3D bid).

I just asked pd Ben

If you bid 3♣ over 1♠ pd will bid 3♠ over 3♣ (undiscussed). Up to you to make some conclusions about it.

[luis]

This auction seems like pretty much a disaster so far. Here's my thoughts:

 

(1) Playing Fantoni-Nunes system, I would've responded 2♦ initially. This will probably make the subsequent auction substantially easier.

(2) If I subbed in for someone playing Fantoni-Nunes who already responded 1NT, then I would rebid 2NT over 2♣ gazilli. This should show a weak hand with both minors. I will then raise opener's "minor suit preference" to the five-level. Hopefully this shows a very distributional weak hand with both minors.

(3) Having responded 1NT and then 2♦, the situation seems more like a suicide squeeze than an endplay -- why have I refused to show either of my two suits given two opportunities? How about if I cuebid 4♥ and then pass partner's minor suit cue... this might actually give us the best shot at winning the board... but it's so anti-partnership that I feel I must bid 4♠ instead.

(4) Playing 2/1 game force, I would've made an invitational jump shift in one of the minors (if we play that). If 3-minor would be something else (weak, strong, bergen, whatever) then I'd respond 1NT and pass opener's 3♠ rebid.

 

By the way, I find it amusing that some people who happily open 1♠ on KQxxx Axxxx xx x (showing 12+ points) refuse to make a 2/1 bid that shows 10+ points holding this hand. Six-six is very strong -- surely I can add a king for shape? Not to mention that any other option will make it virtually impossible to show my suits.

I wil answer your thoughts not with the intention of making an argument but to clarify some points, it may help you design a plan for this hand :-)

 

1) If you bid 2♦ over 1♠ pd will bid 2♠ over 3♣ he will bid 3♠. I'm not sure if you are in a better or worst position relative to the players bidding 1NT, you are showing your suits, right, but you are also lying while the 1NT bidders so far did not tell a single lie to pd, they have a 6-9 hand as promised. Once the whole auction finishes we can debate if we have to bid 2♦ or 1NT with this kind of hand. I'm not sure!

2) 2NT over 2♣ gazilli by agreement would be 4-5 hcp and a balanced hand. It works a lot more than minors or a three suiter in most cases, of course not this one :-)

3) 4♥ now is not a cuebid is natural showing long hearts. It makes sense to play it in that way.

4) For the other pair 3 of a minor was dreaded Bergen :-).

 

In my case I didn't bid 2♦ because I really didn't like the void in the suit pd opened, I have no problem to make a 2/1 bid with less than 10 and shape but I considered that overbidding with a negative factor such as a void in spades was probably wrong.

[han]

I agree with the 4S bid, I think that I can stand the jokes. Note that I would have bid 2D over 1S, and I would much rather start with 1S-2D-2S-3C-3S-5C than 1S-1NT-3S-??. I do agree with you that the spade void is a big negative, but if I can chose between overbidding and showing my shape versus showing my strength but not at all my shape, I usually choose for overbidding.

 

I don't understand how this balanced 4-5 pts 2NT bid over Gazilli can work. Often partner will have 14-17 with 5-4 in the majors, and then you probably want to play in 2S. What do you play 1S-1NT-2C-2S as? It seems useful to have a bid that shows both minors over Gazilli.

[luis]

I agree with the 4S bid, I think that I can stand the jokes. Note that I would have bid 2D over 1S, and I would much rather start with 1S-2D-2S-3C-3S-5C than 1S-1NT-3S-??. I do agree with you that the spade void is a big negative, but if I can chose between overbidding and showing my shape versus showing my strength but not at all my shape, I usually choose for overbidding.

 

I don't understand how this balanced 4-5 pts 2NT bid over Gazilli can work. Often partner will have 14-17 with 5-4 in the majors, and then you probably want to play in 2S. What do you play 1S-1NT-2C-2S as? It seems useful to have a bid that shows both minors over Gazilli.

Sorry forgot to say 2NT would promise 4-5 balanced with 4 clubs.

[luis]

Well I thik 4♠ may be a good way to end it but I couldn't stand bidding 1NT and then 4♠ with 6-6 in the minors.

My first plan was to bid 4NT and since pd rates to have 3 or 4 keycards pass the 5♣ or 5♦ response hoping for the best. What do you think of this plan? I wasn't brave enough.

 

So I decided to bid 4♣ showing a club control.

Pd bid 4♦ showing a diamond control.

And I bid 5♣

Pd bid 5♦

And I bid 6♣ what the hell...

 

Pd had:

 

AKQxxx

Jxx

A

Axx

 

Clubs were 2-2 so 6♣ was made for +920, I'm not going to claim I did well in this board I just had a lot of luck.

In retrospect I think the best plan is to start with 2♦ and describe your shape, so I support those who bid 3♦ for the 1NTers like me maybe the lesson is not to bid 1NT again with a 6-6 hand :-)

 

Luis

[han]

I think this situation comes up a lot and depends on a lot of factors.

 

1) How big of an overbid is a 2/1 bid? Take away a minor suit king and bidding 2D wouldn't occur to anybody. (anybody? "No expert would say this", jlall).

 

2) If you do overbid, will you be able to show the main features of your hand?

 

3) If you bid 1NT, how likely is it that you will be able to show this hand? For example, if you had the agreement that 1S-1NT-2X-4NT shows this kind of hand (not entirely unreasonable I think) then that would make bidding 1NT much more attractive.

 

 

Next time you won't pick up a 6-6 hand but an 8-card suit: x x AQJ10xxxx xxx. Will you bid 1NT or 2D? If you do bid 1NT and partner bids 2C/2D/2H/2S, will you be able to show this kind of hand?

[cherdano]

Luis, if you were afraid of jokes about bidding 1NT-then-4♠, I don't want to hear the jokes about this sequence :D :P

[Chamaco]

By the way, I find it amusing that some people who happily open 1♠ on KQxxx Axxxx xx x (showing 12+ points) refuse to make a 2/1 bid that shows 10+ points holding this hand.

In my opinion, it is perfectly xconsistent that someone can open KQxxx Axxxx xx x in ONE system, and refuse to upgrade the responder hand here, using Fantunes system.

 

I am sure you know better than myself that changing the psylosophy of the system affects the borderline choices like this one.

 

remember, in Fantunes, opener opens at the 1-level with hands that are will to go to game opposite a 10 count.

 

That means it's not necessarily 14, but can be also: AKxxx-AQTxx-x-xx or similar.

 

Here, our shape si a warning that opener MIGHT be in that shape, so it's better to start slow with 1NT, limit our hand.

Other wise, if we start by a GF we'll be unstappable ina hopeless game contract in misfit.

[Chamaco]

Next time you won't pick up a 6-6 hand but an 8-card suit: x x AQJ10xxxx xxx. Will you bid 1NT or 2D? If you do bid 1NT and partner bids 2C/2D/2H/2S, will you be able to show this kind of hand?

This hand is less dangerous, at least there is one sure, known suit that will be a safe haven if the rest of the hand misfits.

So wiyth a one suiter that good, I'd understand overbidding with a GF.

 

But two suiters like the one posted are by far more dangerous, given the likelihood that opener might be 55/65/66 in majors.

[Free]

I've seen that the big guys open 1M with both Majors and 12-13 systemicly. That's one of their last changes, but I guess it was losing to open 2M on such hands. They catch up with their declarer play I guess :P