How to defend 1C precision

[joshs]

Actually, After

(1C)-1M-P-?

If you are willing to restrict 1M to 5 card suits then

Here is an idea:

Say over 1H:

1S = natural, but not forcing

1N= clubs

2C= diamonds

2D= 3 card limit (11+ in support) or a 14+ balanced hand or a hand that is too strong to bid a non-forcing 1S (both are VERY rare)

2H = 3 cards wide ranging (3-10ish) OR 2 cards, no 5 card side suit, and about 11-13

2S=fit jump

2N=4 card limit +

3m=fit jump

3H= pre-empt

 

x-fering to a suit and then supporting partner shows a 5 card suit, 2 card support and 11-13 ish.

 

If you raised 2H on the good hand and a doubleton you will bid game if the overcaller bids again which only happens when the overcaller was too strong for an initial 2 level action (e.g. a hand worth about 13-15ish) and has extra shape.

 

When the opps open 1C there is very little reason to ever play in NT.

 

If you want to be able to overcall on strong 4 card suits, then you have to pass with the 11-13 balanced hand with 2 card support when partner overcalls 1M which isn't the end of the world, but you might miss game when partner has a 6 card suit and a hand too good for an initial 2 level bid. But then again, the strong club side might rescue you...

 

Anyway, some random thoughts, and this stuff only really matters over the light 1C openers...

 

Josh

[Guest Jlall]

I like the following basis for a defensive convention to 1C:

 

1H =hearts.

1S =spades.

2C =clubs.

2D =diamonds.

Excellent system. I'll try to learn it.

[kenrexford]

In all seriousness, I agree with the concept that psychotic obstructionism is flawed. I now prefer the simple old-fashioned X for majors and NT for minors, with preemptive jump overcalls and natural calls, values double. I like Meckwell's idea of a strong major takeout but prefer a two-way 2NT (weak minors or strong majors).

[cherdano]

I like the following basis for a defensive convention to 1C:

 

1H =hearts.

1S =spades.

2C =clubs.

2D =diamonds.

Excellent system. I'll try to learn it.

Ask me for online lessons if you want to know more about it.

[Gerben42]

 

QUOTE (Hannie @ Feb 2 2006, 04:40 PM)

I like the following basis for a defensive convention to 1C:

 

1H =hearts.

1S =spades.

2C =clubs.

2D =diamonds.

 

Excellent system. I'll try to learn it.

 

Can you provide a written suggested defence against this kind of overcalls please?

[tseager44]

Look up Truscott defense,,,it is very good....as I use it against club bids. And thats because I also use precision club so have to know what its all about.

[DelfinoD]

You can make lot's of trouble using the strong pass Lambda defence:

 

x = ♥

1♦ = ♠

1♥ = 5+4+ ♣♥ or ♠♦

1♠ = 5+4+ ♣♠ or ♦♥

1nt = 5+4+♣♦ or ♥♠

2 suit = natural 6+

 

After 54 opening next bid is relay and responces are natural, show longer suit, 3 of a suit means 64 maximum, 4 of a suit means 74 and 2nt shows 5-5 any (3c asks for suit and strenght)

[Miron]

I add few more defences I know:

 

"Shortness"

x = (3+ card) support for all except ♣

1♦♥♠ = (3+ card) support for all except bid suit

1/2NT = 5+5+ any

2♣♦♥♠ = natural

or

2♣ = ♥♠

2♦ = 6+ major (multi)

2♥♠ = 5♥♠ & 4 minor

 

If you have 5422 you can bid this one of these dubletons as "shortness" or you can bid as 55.

 

"Shortness or length"

This is a variant of previous:

x = (3+ card) support for all except ♣ OR ♣

1♦♥♠ = (3+ card) support for all except bid suit OR bid suit

Other same.

[Miron]

And one from my friend:

 

"Tutti Frutti"

x = 4♥ & 4♠

1♦ = 4♠ & 5+ minor OR 5+♥

1♥ = 4♥ & 5+ minor OR 5+♠

1♠ = 5+minor

1NT = 5-4 minors

 

2♣ = 5♥ & 5♠

2♦ and further has the same meaning as on first level but it is longer (f.e. 2♥ = 5♥ & 5+ minor or 6+♥).

[whereagles]

Miron, if you allow me some free advice, let me tell you this. To defend a strong club is more a matter of following a correct strategy and exercising judgement than a matter of using convention x or y. Any convention will do, even the simplest one:

 

1♣ ..?

x = clubs

1y = suit y

2y = more cards in suit y

etc..

 

The point is to judge whether or not to bid, and how high. And for this you don't need any convention, and, interestingly enough, the HCP strenght doesn't matter much. It is technically correct to overcall, at love all,

 

1♣ 2♠

 

on as little as

 

♠ QJ9xx

♥ xxx

♦ x

♣ xxxx

 

or as much as

 

♠ KQTxxx

♥ Ax

♦ x

♣ AQxx

 

In the first case, pard will have some 13-14 hcp, but opps rate to have a game in hearts or NT. On the second case, pard will have 2-3 hcp and you can't have game on, so 2♠ is probably your side's correct contract.

 

The strategy against a strong club is thus to overcall frequently on 2nd seat and with wide range. As for pard, he should be very conservative raising. With a good hand, just pass and butt-in for the partscore later. This strategy is WAY more important than any convention used.

[Miron]

You're right. But IMHO there are also other important things.

 

I'm seeking for a convention which will:

• minimalize the risk of bad result (doubled)
  
• minimalize the information for opponents
  
• maximalize the destruction of opponents bidding (every overcall is good, but some are better)
  

The strategy with wide range is good. But if you simply overcall 1♠ when you have spades, you woun't have bad results, but you send a lot of information to opps and you also don't make much problems to opps (it is better then pass, but not for much). They know what you have.

 

I created this thread to find out what are the possibilities of overcalls over 1♣. I am glad for every info. So far I think that the best is to overcall as unclear as possible. With some shape so you woun't suffer playing doubled. The best is to overcall 1♠-2♦(2♥) as often as possible, with not completly clear distribution. Preserve x, 1♦♥ for weaker hands (very unclear hands for opps) and (2♥)2♠+ for hands, you don't mind playing doubled (rather 1-suiter, then 2-suiter; you send opps a lot of info, but they are on 3rd level). I'll go thru all posts again, but my idea so far is:

(2♥)2♠+ = 1-suiter

2NT = some good 2-suiter

1♠-2♦(2♥) = 2-suiters

x, 1♦♥ = 3-suiters (4-4-3-2 etc) maybe shortness or length

pass = weak (afraid to bid) or strong (will bid/double later)

 

Please feel free to comment this idea of overcalls agains 1♣.

[whereagles]

I understand you want to maximize your chances. My point is only that such maximization is secondary to following a correct strategy and exercising judgement. In other words, if you hold at love all, say

 

♠ KJTxxx

♥ Qxxxx

♦ x

♣ x

 

it doesn't matter much if you bid a natural 2♠ or a 2NT majors-or-minors overcall, as long as you do make some jump overcall.

 

Another example is this:

 

♠ JTxxx

♥ Qxxx

♦ QJ

♣ AQ

 

With this hand you're probably better off passing, regardless of being able to overcall a natural 1♠ or an artificial 1♦ for the majors.

[coyot]

But that's not the point of this thread :).

 

Following a correct strategy and exercising judgement is a GENERAL rule that you should follow - and it is assumed here.

[whereagles]

But that's not the point of this thread :).

 

Following a correct strategy and exercising judgement is a GENERAL rule that you should follow - and it is assumed here.

I know. Just that sometimes people tend to lose more time discussing (useless) gadgets than strategy (an immensely more valuable concept).

[suokko]

over 1♣(1♠) it is possible to be only step+1 if using relays.

 

 

pass GF relay (1♦ if no interference),

dbl negative (1♥ if no interference),

1NT bid is 1♠

 

 

after pass:

dbl is 1♥ bid

1NT is 1♠

 

But our negative response system is destroyed there but it is small sacrafice

[glen]

The strategy against a strong club is thus to overcall frequently on 2nd seat and with wide range. As for pard, he should be very conservative raising. With a good hand, just pass and butt-in for the partscore later. This strategy is WAY more important than any convention used.

However this is not the best overall strategy, though is effective.

 

The best strategy aims to jam opener's rebid. This is done in two ways:

1) Jump bids over the 1♣ opening, taking bidding space away

2) Bids over the 1♣ opening that allow advancer to make a bid that reduces opener's bidding space.

 

For example of 2), take this auction:

1♣-1♦(natural)-Double(values)-3♦

 

The 1♦ bid didn't take any bidding space, but the 3♦ did damage. Now, what are the ranges of 3♥, 3♠, 3NT, 4♣ by opener? Does opener go by 3NT with ♣s? How are 5-5, 5-4, 4-5, 5-3, 3-5 in the majors bid now - do some go by 3NT? How does one find 5-3 and 6-2 major fits?

 

Method 2) can be even harder for opener to bid over with pass or correct possible.

 

For example:

1♣-1♦(♦s or ♥s)-Double(values)-3♦(Pass or Correct)

 

Now what is double - is it showing ♦s or takeout of ♦s or just handling hands with values and no other good bid? Does 3NT promise stoppers in both red suits, or a specific one of them?

 

Almost all schemes over 1♣ allow for jump overcalls on a fairly wide range of hands. However only some schemes provide substantial opportunities for advancer to jam the auction while also sowing confusion.

[whereagles]

Officeglen, your strategy of blocking opener's rebid is simply a variant of the general idea of frequent and random overcalls 2nd seat.

 

I do agree, however, that 2-suited overcalls enable 4th player to raise the preemption more frequently. But that's not as nearly as important as doing something in 2nd seat, no matter what :blink:

[glen]

Officeglen, your strategy of blocking opener's rebid is simply a variant of the general idea of frequent and random overcalls 2nd seat.

 

I do agree, however, that 2-suited overcalls enable 4th player to raise the preemption more frequently. But that's not as nearly as important as doing something in 2nd seat, no matter what :blink:

The strategy of blocking opener's rebid by a 4th seat jam is not "simply a variant of the general idea of frequent and random overcalls 2nd seat". That's like saying that two suited overcalls are "simply a variant" of one suited overcalls, or that apples are "simply a variant" of oranges.

 

"Doing something in 2nd seat, no matter what " - actually what I've seen is that 2nd seat overcalls of 2♦ or less, or double, have no net plus position if advancer can't move these forward, especially to the three level.

 

So in contrast to your statements, I believe that 4th seat bidding is more important than random bidding by 2nd seat.

[whereagles]

Disagree. I think natural 1-suited overcalls and artificial 2-suited overcalls are simply two tactical ways to implement the same strategy of frequent butt-ins by 2nd player. Yes, it's apples and oranges, but the idea is to eat fruit. If you see what I mean :blink:

[keylime]

I agree with Glen here.

 

Playing strong club for years now, the three things that I feel are most important in defending against it is:

 

1) Good hands - Many people like passing then bidding to show good playing hands. I personally like bidding it immediately. In either style, it is important to discuss the ramifications of this. The reason why I prefer saying my hand asap is to get pard's input into the auction. They can bid freely knowing I have a reasonable hand opposite them. However, this is definitely a p'ship understanding.

 

2) Two suited overcalls - I've seen a lot of people that over a 1♣ bid ANY 2 suited defense. I don't think that's necessary the best way to combat Precision; bidding intelligently and having the ability to show a heart or spade suit via naturally or by a transfer bid is imperative. Two suited overcalls should be rather shapely. Any 5-4 isn't enough.

 

3) Skill level of your opps - This for some reason isn't addressed a lot. I think one of the best tests for a strong club partnership is not how well they bid your slams and games, but how effectively they combat your interference. If they have not invested time into dissecting and preparing countermeasures, then you want to attack them every chance they have. However, if after a hand they have methods that are practiced, then caution is needed - if a p'ship I play against manage the interference and are able to get to where they need to be then I'm much more careful in overcalling.

 

There are plenty of defenses over a strong club out there. I use Transfer CRO in KLPV16, but in Tangelo it's modified CRASH so that I can bid 1 of a major naturally. Mathe, for all that it's maligned, has enough naturality in it to help reduce the memory load.

[mghmaine]

In a pinch I've had good luck asking partner to just bid 1S.