How to defend 1C precision

[Miron]

Do you have a good defence against precision 1♣?

Please DO NOT answer YES/NO :blink:

[hrothgar]

Maybe

[Miron]

:blink:

[Gerben42]

Maybe

 

ROFL!

**********

In my opinion there are two kinds of SUIT bids that "work" against Precision.

 

A. Natural bids

B. Bids that do not show a known suit, but one of the possibilities is the suit bid.

 

Example of A: 1♠ shows ♠

Example of B: 2♦ shows either ♦ or ♥+♠

 

Suit bids that do NOT work are those that show a known suit but are not natural (for example 1♥ promising ♠), and bids that do not show a known suit but exclude the suit bid (for example 2♦ Multi: either ♥ or ♠). These can easily be doubled to show "it's our hand".

 

NT bids and Double of course have the problem that you're not going to play what you bid. That doesn't mean that 1♣X should be a penalty double of ♣ and 1NT a big balanced hand, far from it, you just need to be aware of this.

 

SIMPLE DEFENCE:

 

X = ♥ + ♠

1NT = ♣ + ♦

Rest = natural

 

Easy :blink:

 

*************

NASTY DEFENCE:

 

X = ♣

1♦ = ♦

1♥ = ♥

1♠ = ♠

 

(so far not really nasty, wait for it)

 

1NT = ♣♥ or ♦♠

2♣ = ♣ or ♦♥

2♦ = ♦ or ♥♠

2♥ = ♥ or ♠♣

2♠ = ♠ or ♣♦

2NT = as 1NT

etc.

 

Edit: If you plan to play this, be sure to talk about the continuations and what it means when they double.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Gerben42

[Miron]

Why the first level is natural?

I have were good experiences with one level bids, a lot of pairs is not exactly agreed on defence.

[hrothgar]

Here are my preferred methods

 

Pass = Strong or weak

 

X = Both majors

 

Typical example hands (minimum/maximum)

 

♠ KJT2 ♥QT98 ♦73 ♣762

♠ AJ763 ♥ KT52 ♦ 9 ♣ 763

 

1♣ = Lead directing (typically a canape overcall)

 

Typical example hands

 

♠ 92 ♥ 874 ♦ QT853 ♣ KQ3

♠ 54 ♥ T87432 ♦ 63 ♣ AQJ

 

1♦ = Lead directing (typically a canape overcall)

1♥ = Lead directing (typically a canape overcall)

 

1♠ = Spades

 

♠ AJ72 ♥ 52 ♦ QT62 ♣ 763

♠ AQJ73 ♥ 74 ♦ 843 ♣ K5

♠ AJ843 ♥ K742 ♦ 672 ♣ 4

 

1N = 2 suited with Spades and a minor

 

♠ AQ52 ♥ 673 ♦ QT632 ♣ 3

♠ AJT62 ♥ 4 ♦ 52 ♣ KJ942

 

2♣ = Clubs and Hearts

 

♠ 7632 ♥ QJ73 ♦ 4 ♣ KQ42

♠ 5 ♥ AQJ9 ♦ Q42 ♣ KQ8742

 

2♦ = Diamonds and Hearts

 

♠ Q52 ♥ KT52 ♦ QT62 ♣ 62

♠ 42 ♥ KJT82 ♦ AQ932 ♣ 3

 

2♥ = Hearts

 

♠ 73 ♥ QJT642 ♦ K72 ♣ 732

♠ K4 ♥ AQT9732 ♦ 73 ♣ 82

 

2♠ = Spades

 

2N = Clubs or (Diamonds and a major)

 

3C = Minors

 

♠ 4 ♥ 863 ♦ KJ762 ♣ KQ73

♠ 2 ♥ 63 ♦ AT572 ♣ AKT73

 

3♦ = Diamonds

3♥ = Majors

[Gerben42]

Okay here's why the 1-level is natural.

 

First, you're not taking a lot of space with your bid so you want partner to be able to beef it upto the 3-level if his hand calls for it.

 

Second, you may have a hand that just wants to set the lead for partner if it comes to that. Since such bids are too dangerous at other levels you need to make them at the 1-level, and if it's not natural partner will not get it right that often.

 

Third, 1-level bids are easy to defend. If pairs have no agreement against 1-level interference you were probably going to beat them if you would have passed also :blink:

[Free]

There have been like 20 threads about this, my favorite is still DOSC.

[Gerben42]

Notice BTW that Hrothgar's method follow the rule that suit bids cannot be doubled to show points and then wait for a second chance. In his case, a bid in a suit shows that suit, possibly in combination with another suit but that's not important.

 

In that respect it must be classified as a "good defence". Sorry Free, I don't like the 1-level bids in your DOSC. Also against my regular partner and myself bidding 1♠ won't "destroy" most of our regular system. Pushing up the relay 1 step is not the end of the world, anyway (take away 1♦ 1♥ 1♠, gain Dbl and Pass). Except that's not what we play. Instead we push up the relay TWO steps, pass with "it's our hand" and double for good measure with weak hands (0 - 5).

 

I'm sure it works for you and you are very happy with it but I would want more opponents to play your defence when I open a strong Club. Maybe this is because I am among the lucky few who put work into interference auctions :blink:

[Flame]

http://squeezingthedummy.blogspot.com/2006...trong-club.html

[csdenmark]

Defensive strong artificial openings

[inquiry]

What I like....

 

DBL = ♣'s

1♦ = ♥'s

1♥ = ♠

1♠ = 4♠ and longer minor (raptor) can also have 5♠ and 5 minor, weak

1NT = 4♥ and longer minor (raptor), can have 5♥ too, see 2NT

2♣ = shows ♦, or ♥ and ♠ two suiter

2♦ = shows ♥, or ♠/♣ two suiter

2♥ = shows ♠, or minor two suiter

2♠ = shows ♠, ♦ two suiter

2NT = shows exceptional ♥, ♣ two suiter (use 1NT otherwise)

3 bids = preempt in bid suit.

[Miron]

Summary of hrothgar's method

(I need to see it in few lines to understand it :-)

------------------------------------

pass = strong or weak

x = ♥ & ♠

1♣♦♥ = Lead directing (canape style)

1♠ = ♠

1NT = ♠ & minor

2♣ = ♣ & ♥

2♦ = ♦ & ♥

2♥ = ♥

2♠ = ♠

2NT = ♣ or ♦ & ♥♠

3♣ = ♣ & ♦

3♦ = ♦

3♥ = ♥ & ♠

[Free]

In that respect it must be classified as a "good defence". Sorry Free, I don't like the 1-level bids in your DOSC. Also against my regular partner and myself bidding 1♠ won't "destroy" most of our regular system. Pushing up the relay 1 step is not the end of the world, anyway (take away 1♦ 1♥ 1♠, gain Dbl and Pass). Except that's not what we play. Instead we push up the relay TWO steps, pass with "it's our hand" and double for good measure with weak hands (0 - 5).

 

I'm sure it works for you and you are very happy with it but I would want more opponents to play your defence when I open a strong Club. Maybe this is because I am among the lucky few who put work into interference auctions :)

We've been playing this against quite a lot of good opponents, and we've even tested it against our own system (also strong ♣). About 95% of the time we get to a decent spot in the worst case scenario (for example 2X*-2 when opps have game, or even makable contracts). Btw, we also lift our relays +2 steps in this situation, and it can be a real pain in the ass when your relays suddenly pass 3NT! Anyway, if I can get your relays up 2 steps without having problems of my own, what's my problem? :rolleyes:

 

I'm not going to try convincing people of the method, since opinions can't be changed anyway. I just know it works for me and my partners.

[Echognome]

We play the following as it is similar to our 1NT defense, so less pain on the memory. It has been reasonably effective without taking us for a number.

 

X = ♥+♠

1♦ = any single suit (rarely used)

1♥ = ♥+minor (4 is fine)

1♠ = ♠+minor (4 is fine)

1NT = ♣+♦

2X = wonder bid (that suit or the other three)

 

We vary our strength/distribution requirements according to vulnerability.

[Double !]

I kind of enjoy playing TRASH where every bid shows either the next highest suit (X = diamonds) or the two suits after that. At least it's relatively easy on the memory, but don't ask me how. I forget.

 

But, on first glance, Ben's defense looks quite interesting.

 

DHL

[Al_U_Card]

x=majors

1NT=minors

1D=D and a major (better D)

1H or 1S= that suit and a minor (better major)

2 level is weak single suited.

[han]

I like the following basis for a defensive convention to 1C:

 

1H =hearts.

1S =spades.

2C =clubs.

2D =diamonds.

 

I agree with what Justin wrote in his blog, entering the auction for the sake of it is not good. Partner should have some faith in your overcalls because he needs to be able to raise to the 2 or 3 level.

 

One other point that I haven't seen mentioned. When you have a (not so strong) 2-suiter but one suit is much better than the other, make a 1-suited overcall in your best suit. Not only will this much better in the defense (lead directing as well as not giving away your distribution), the 2-suited overcalls will often help them to find their best contract, and allows them to make cuebids that were otherwise not available.

[luke warm]

i play

x=C and D or D only

2c=D and H or H only

1d=H and S or S only

1h=S and C or C only

1s=D and S

1nt=C and H

 

any bid at any level means the same ... i also like this over the 1D response to 1C (shifted), over strong 2C, and over 2D waiting after 2C

[Sigi_BC84]

Suit bids that do NOT work are those that show a known suit but are not natural (for example 1♥ promising ♠), and bids that do not show a known suit but exclude the suit bid (for example 2♦ Multi: either ♥ or ♠). These can easily be doubled to show "it's our hand".

I understand that non-forcing artificial bids put more pressure on the precision pair, since responder does not get a guaranteed second opportunity to make a call.

 

However, your argument cited would also work against popular (and working) anti-NT conventions (e.g. 2♣ = Ms or 2♦ = Multi). If they work against a strong NT, why shouldn't they (quite) equally apply against a strong club (which is quite often a strong NT opener anyway)?

 

E.g. if the bidding goes (1NT)-2♦*-(X), opener also knows that it's their hand, but we have got them out of their NT and disturbed their methods. Likewise against a strong club (we have disturbed their methods while odds were on that it was their hand anyway).

 

Curious,

Sigi

[han]

Suit bids that do NOT work are those that show a known suit but are not natural (for example 1♥ promising ♠), and bids that do not show a known suit but exclude the suit bid (for example 2♦ Multi: either ♥ or ♠). These can easily be doubled to show "it's our hand".

I understand that non-forcing artificial bids put more pressure on the precision pair, since responder does not get a guaranteed second opportunity to make a call.

 

However, your argument cited would also work against popular (and working) anti-NT conventions (e.g. 2♣ = Ms or 2♦ = Multi). If they work against a strong NT, why shouldn't they (quite) equally apply against a strong club (which is quite often a strong NT opener anyway)?

 

E.g. if the bidding goes (1NT)-2♦*-(X), opener also knows that it's their hand, but we have got them out of their NT and disturbed their methods. Likewise against a strong club (we have disturbed their methods while odds were on that it was their hand anyway).

 

Curious,

Sigi

You are absolutely right, this does apply to conventions over 1NT. This is why many sensible people insist that (1NT)-2H and (1NT)-2S are natural, see for instance conventions like Meckwell, Lionel, modified Woolsey, modified Cappaletti, Meyerson, etc.

[cherdano]

Suit bids that do NOT work are those that show a known suit but are not natural (for example 1♥ promising ♠), and bids that do not show a known suit but exclude the suit bid (for example 2♦ Multi: either ♥ or ♠). These can easily be doubled to show "it's our hand".

I understand that non-forcing artificial bids put more pressure on the precision pair, since responder does not get a guaranteed second opportunity to make a call.

 

However, your argument cited would also work against popular (and working) anti-NT conventions (e.g. 2♣ = Ms or 2♦ = Multi). If they work against a strong NT, why shouldn't they (quite) equally apply against a strong club (which is quite often a strong NT opener anyway)?

These two situations are not comparable. Over 1NT, opener's hand is well-defined, and responder usually can place the contract after a single question to opener. So it doesn't cost as much to give them additional bidding space. Whereas after 1♣ precision, opener's hand is of course wildly undefined, and every additional bidding space for opponent's is a big gain for them.

 

Same reason why you may preempt wildly over 1♣, while there is not as much incentive to do so over 1NT.

 

(I agree with Han that I like 2M over 1NT natural, but IMO the reason is more to enable partner to compete/lead, rather than to put opponent's under pressure.)

 

Arend

[kenrexford]

I cannot say whether this is good bridge or just funny. At times, funny is better.

 

Anyway, I had my old pet defense come up on three of four hands in a midnight swiss. The round involved six boards, but we only got through four. We won by about 30 IMP's.

 

The defense:

 

One-bids show either that suit (5+) or not that suit (4441-ish). Advancer can pass this. However, a raise shows ability to bid opne of the other three suits about the level of the raise but poor support if partner is one-suited. A new suit call shows preference for the other three suits and ability to raise the bid suit to this level. Jumps are possible. Notrump advances are undiscussed, and hence really fun.

 

Two-bids show two-suiters, bidding the cheapest one first. You should, ideally, be 44. With 4432, you can elect to treat this as a two-suiter OR you might bid the short suit to treat it as a three-suiter.

 

1NT shows 4333 pattern.

 

The results in the midnight game were tremendous. The opponents played in our suit at the four level, doubled us into game, played a partscore on a slam hand, and bid 3NT on the last, down four. The director was at the table. He kept a straight face at the table but could not elsewhere.

[han]

Although the 1NT opening is not similar to a 1C opening, the reasons for bidding a suit you have are the same:

 

1) You want to get your suit in immediately for competitive purposes. Suppose you play that 2D shows a major, and the bidding goes (1NT)-2D-(2NT*), where 2NT is lebensohl and they are intending to play 3C. You might miss your 6-4 fit by passing!

 

2) You don't want to give the opponents extra room to bid. Using the same example, the 2D call would allow the opponents to play negative doubles (pass followed by double) as well as penalty doubles (double followed by double).

 

3) You want to make sure that partner knows which suit to lead (not as important because you will most often be on lead).

 

4) You don't want to make a bid that *promises* a different suit as it would allow the opponents to cuebid.

[joshs]

Let me make some general comments about bidding over a strong club.

I have always joked that a strong club is the world best pre-empt. People go crazy over it and can't bid their games, and go for numbers against it. Yes, virginia, you can make game even though the opps opened 1C, especially with a good major suit fit. But the likelihood of being able to make game varies greatly with how light the 1C opener could be.

 

If you are playing against classical blue team or somethign like that with 18+ balanced, 17+ unbalanced. You will rarely have game. If they upgraded a distributional 16, you might have game, but its not that likely. When you play against a 15+ 1C opening, that might include: Axx xx xx AKQJxx (I would upgrade that to a 15+ 1C opener) I wouldn't be suprised if you can make 4 or 5 in a major, even with only an 8 card fit.

 

Consequently, when playing vs the lighter 1C openings:

a. have some way of bidding very good hands (some like x for this, others like pass and then bid later for this)

b. you can't bid on total crap, or at least some of your bids should promise certain values

c. you need to be able to have invitational sequences

 

I strongly recomend playing 1M overcalls as promising something and then playing:

a. 2N response as limit+ with 4 trumps (here a limit raise should be about 13 in support)

b. 1N as forcing or semi-forcing (only pass if you overcalled a 4 card suit). This will handle the good 3 card raises.

 

When the 1C is of the 17+ variety, don't worry about game, just try to put maximum pressure on them. ART methods over the stronger 1C systems, are fine (you choose you favorite, ideally you can bid both 1 and 2 suiters).

 

In terms of tactics, usually the best tactic vs a strong club is to get to the 2 level as fast as possible, and then stop, unless you are sure of a really good fit. So I highly recommend methods that let you bid directly at the 2 level as often as possible, while retaining some safety.

 

What I usually play is:

Pass then bid = a hand worth opening a strong club

x= clubs

1D,1H,1S=natural can have 2 level shape if 13-15ish

1N = Woolsey: 5 card minor and 4 card major, or 6D, about 6-12

2C=majors, about 6-12

2D=1 major, about 6-12

2M=5 M 4+ in m about 6-12

 

Note: the most dangerous of these bids (2M) are the natural ones, so hardest to penalize. The other bids allow them to make a value showing x and then x you later, so you need much more likelihood of finding an 8 card fit.

 

If you are VUL or their 1C bid is of the very light variety, you should tighten these ranges slightly (extra shape is always better than extra values).

 

Also if the opps play takeout x's or penalty x's rather then an omnibus "cards" x at the 2 level, you also need to tighten up these bids and have good suits....

 

Anyway, just some random thought.

 

Josh