Handling preeempts using Leaping Michaels

[Chamaco]

Hi all ! :-)

 

I'd like to know from the folks who play Leaping Micheals over opps preempts (actually NON-Leaping Michaels, but too late to modify the thread title ! B) ), how they modify their structure to account for that.

 

Especially, 3 issues:

 

1) Long minor based hands.

How do you bid, say over 3S

.......a. xx- KJ-Axx-AQJxxx

.......b. x- AQ-AQxx-KQJxxx

.......c. x- AK-Axx-AKQxxxx

.......d. void- AKx-Axx-AKQxxxx

 

2) Basically I'd like to know the difference in strength between:

- double and bid 4m over pard 3M

- double and bid 4m over pard 3NT

- double and bid 5m over pard 3M

- double and bid 5m over pard 3NT

- double and bid 5m over pard's 4X

- direct 5m bid

 

Please add concrete examples (perhaps referring to , or changing the way you like, hands abcd above), because t's easier for me to get the idea with real hands :)

 

3) If you use the takeout double to include long minors hands without stopper, the to DBL becomes more of a stopper ask tool than a 4cM asking tool.

 

So that affects responder's choices:

Say bidding goes

3H-(DBL)-pass- ?

 

You hold

AQxx-Axx-AJxxx-x

 

What do you bid ? 4S, 3NT or what ?

 

If you bid 4S, the risk is that pard's hand is the club-based hand and he will pull to 5C.

If you bid 3NT, the risk is that we might lose a cold slam in spades.

 

Comments from the Leaping Michaels aficionados ? :-)

[tysen2k]

I use leaping Michaels only over weak 2's.

[Stephen Tu]

If you choose to use non-leaping Michaels, I think the idea is with the weaker hands that want to act but aren't quite good enough to drive to 5m, you simply bid 3nt with no stopper. This of course looks exceedingly stupid at times, down 3 off the top, sometimes with the stopper wrongsided (works better in balancing seat). OTOH you can reach many making 3nt (with 4nt/5m no play) that were otherwise unbiddable, because partner wasn't going to balance 3nt on his 8-10 count with a stop.

[inquiry]

This is a treatment that Mishovnbg taught me. HE calls this Meta "overcalls" but really it is a meta defense against preempts at the three level.

 

His meta overcall strategy uses a double of three level bid as either THRUMP takeout double with minor one suiter, or a normal takeout. First obligation is to bid 3NT if you can. His bid of a minor at four level is Michaels and forcing. So double and then minor (assuming partner didn't bid 3NT) shows the minor one suiter.

 

I am not convinced this is the best treatment to play, but I have played it with some good successes and some horrible failures. Good seems to outweigh the bad, but not clear I would have as many bads playing normal.

[tysen2k]

His meta overcall strategy uses a double of three level bid as either THRUMP takeout double with minor one suiter, or a normal takeout. First obligation is to bid 3NT if you can. His bid of a minor at four level is Michaels and forcing. So double and then minor (assuming partner didn't bid 3NT) shows the minor one suiter.

I would think this would make partner scared to bid a major game opposite this double. Is that true?

[inquiry]

His meta overcall strategy uses a double of three level bid as either THRUMP takeout double with minor one suiter, or a normal takeout. First obligation is to bid 3NT if you can. His bid of a minor at four level is Michaels and forcing. So double and then minor (assuming partner didn't bid 3NT) shows the minor one suiter.

I would think this would make partner scared to bid a major game opposite this double. Is that true?

This is part of the problem. It is not quite that bad when advancer has four or five in the major, since doubler generally pulls to his minor and that has worked ok. The problem is if advancer has a great major suit of his own.

 

I have to admit, when the non-leaping micheals hand comes up, or when the you want to be in 3NT if partner can stop the preempt suit, this meta thing works wonders. But the downside is greatly confuses the normal TO double hand.

 

I think in the long run, the normal TO double is superior, on average, but this is just a feeling.. i haven't studied how well we do and don't do on these hand yet.

[Cascade]

Hi all ! :-)

 

I'd like to know from the folks who play Leaping Micheals over opps preempts (actually NON-Leaping Michaels, but too late to modify the thread title ! :P ), how they modify their structure to account for that.

 

Especially, 3 issues:

I did a simulation around 15 years ago that convinced me that 4m was such a useless (natural) bid over the opponents 3-level pre-empt. For many years I simply would not make this bid. More recently we have started using 4m as leaping or non-leaping Michaels.

 

1) Long minor based hands.

  How do you bid, say over 3S

.......a. xx- KJ-Axx-AQJxxx

.......b. x- AQ-AQxx-KQJxxx

.......c. x- AK-Axx-AKQxxxx

.......d. void- AKx-Axx-AKQxxxx

 

Our choices with long minor hands are Double, 3NT, 5m or pass.

 

a. We probably have to pass this hand its not suitable for Dbl and has too many losers for 5m. If we felt like it we could try an experiment with 3NT.

 

b. 5♣ - opposite a couple of useful cards and a fit we will have play for 5♣.

 

c. Too strong for 5♣ now. Opposite a couple of useful cards or even on card and a diamond shortage there is play for 6♣. With this hand we would double first and then bid ♣.

 

d. Again double and bid clubs.

 

2) Basically I'd like to know the difference in strength between:

- double and bid 4m over pard 3M

- double and bid 4m over pard 3NT

 

These are similar strength. A hand too strong to bid 5♣. Around fewer than four losers. This would be a little flexible depending on whether the losers were Aces or Queens.

 

4m over 3NT would be forcing so can be a wider range than 4m over 3M.

 

Hands c and d above as stated.

 

- double and bid 5m over pard 3M

 

This is probably about a 2-loser hand since a direct 5m would be around 4 losers and 4m now would be around 3 losers.

 

Hand c modified ...

 

x- AK-AQx-AKQxxxx (3-losers but a minimum for this action)

 

- double and bid 5m over pard 3NT

 

I think this wouldn't exist for us since 4m would be forcing.

 

We have a generic agreement that over 3NT an unlimited hand (doubler on this auction) can always ask for Aces with 5♣ so I think 5♣ would be an Ace-Ask here but we haven't actually discussed this specific application.

 

- double and bid 5m over pard's 4X

 

Around 2-3 losers.

 

Hands c and d above

 

- direct 5m bid

 

Around 4 losers.

 

Hand b above.

 

3) If you use the takeout double to include long minors hands without stopper, the to DBL becomes more of a stopper ask tool than a 4cM asking tool.

 

So that affects responder's choices:

Say bidding goes

3H-(DBL)-pass- ?

 

You hold

AQxx-Axx-AJxxx-x

 

What do you bid ? 4S, 3NT or what ?

 

If you bid 4S, the risk is that pard's hand is the club-based hand and he will pull to 5C.

If you bid 3NT, the risk is that we might lose a cold slam in spades.

 

Comments from the Leaping Michaels aficionados ? :-)

 

We don't alter our doubles much in this situation. We always have the option of doubling with a minor one-suiter but we would only tend to do that with extra strength or tolerance for the unbid suits (especially majors).

 

We do play THRUMP doubles after a one-level opening and a three-level jump overcall but the considerations are different since partner has shown some values by opening the bidding.

 

I would probably cue-bid with the example hand opposite a stiff heart and a takeout double slam should have a play if we can find a fit.