Relay breaker or alternatives keyc menu

[benlessard]

You are in a relaying auction similar to this one

 

 

1h----------------1nt GF

2d nat-----------

 

Now 2h is keep the relay going while the rest are natural and break the relay.

 

but IMHO an option much more useful then the 2s relaybreak is

to make 1 skip to enter an alternative menu for ace asking /controls ask.

 

after relaying a usual setup is

 

1s step is keyc in longuest suit

2nd step is keyc in 2nd longuest suit

3rd is keyc in 3rd longuest suit

 

4 is exclusinon void in longuest suit

5 is exclusion in 2nd longuest suit and so on

 

some play controls or whatever.

but the fact is that its fun to have more the 3-or 4 tools esp for voids.

 

 

(of course there are sign-off bids and 3nt to play)

 

So sometimes a void is troublesome.

 

but by skipping early we can make 2 menu for ace ask.

 

No skip setup

 

 

 

keyc first suit bid

key fragment suit

exclusion first suit bid

 

skip setup

 

keyc 2nd longuest suit

keyc in 4th suit (or controls)

exclusion 2nd suit bid

etc...

 

 

Exemple

 

 

AKxx

x

AJ8x

QJ9x

 

VS

 

--

Axxx

10xxx

AKxxx

 

 

North dealer

 

1d---------------------1h nat or GF

1s----------------------2c GF

2h B---------------------2nt ! skipping to show that we want to use 2nd menu

 

3c D- 4144---------------------3s

now we are in keyc menu 2 so 3s is exclusion 2nd suit bid.

3nt---14------------------------4c k ?

4d nope------------------------5c to play.

 

 

Note that you can also skip at certain place in the relay auction but its somewhat difficult to assign meaning to this.

 

 

Ben

[Free]

Problem: when you know 2 suits, you don't know what the 3rd and 4th suit will be... And if you ask, you might end up too high which is exactly what you want to avoid here B)

[benlessard]

Yes but you can do the same thing after you know the fragment.Depending of the style of your relay.

 

 

1h---------------1s ?

2s nat GF-------2nt ?

3c- c fragment ---3d

3s 4612

 

 

instead of bidding 3d opener can bid 3h to say that hes looking for kq of clubs.

 

suppose you got

 

x

KQxx

aqx

Axxx

 

 

1s -------1nt GF

2h nat----

 

keyc in the fragment is more interesting then making a keyc in h even if you don't know the fragment.

 

 

But anyway the point is that sometimes you want to ask for aces sometimes controls. Sometimes you want to q-bid. Sometimes exclusion. And most of the time you got a pretty good idea of what your looking for before the end of the relay. Giving up 1 relay-breaker isnt very costly IMHO

 

A=3 K=1 or A=2 K=1

[hrothgar]

Relay breaks are one of the most complex part of any relay system.

 

From my own perspective, I've rarely wanted to break into keycard at a low level. Even if it looks like a low level keycard ask would be helpful, losing distributional information degrades the efficiency of the rest of the auction.

 

I prefer to use relay breaks to permit more intelligent investigation regarding NT contracts. Relay systems are notoriously weak asking/showing stoppers at a low level.

[benlessard]

I agree that why im saying that a 1 step skip in a relay auction shoulndt be relay break. its just duplicate the slam tools asking table.

 

for example

 

 

1h-------1s ?

2c (♦)---2s ? GF

3c (♣)----

 

after 3c the distribution is still not known.

 

but we could skip to 3h to show that we have a shortness in partner 1st or 2nd suit .

 

So no skipping = we will ask for controls (a=2 k=1, not suit controls) after the distribution is known .

 

if you skip partner keep relaying but when you ask for aces/ controls the king in partner longuest suit doenst count for example.

 

 

So instead of

 

relaying and jump to make exclusion at the end.

 

you make a small skip in the relya chain to indicate a 2nd menu of keyc/excluion usually showing shortness in partner 1st or second suit.

 

 

 

 

Lets say

your original slam tools are

 

1 ---- controls A=2 K=1

2 keyc second longuest suit

3 keyc 3rd longuest suit

4 exlcusion void in longuest suit

5 exlcusion void in 2nd suit

6 4 exclusion void in fragment

 

 

you put 245 in 2nd menu.

 

 

so relaying without skipping and making first ask bid is a=2 k=1

so relaying without skipping and making 2nd ask bid is keyc in fragment

so relaying without skipping and making 3rd bid is exclusion in fragment

 

 

so relaying with skipping and making first ask bid is keycard in longuest suit

so relaying with skipping and making 2nd ask bid is exclusion in longuest suit

so relaying with skipping and making 3rd bid is exclusion in 2nd suit.

 

 

The point is by sacrificing 1 early relay break you add yourself more space to keycard/exclusion/controls ask.

 

Ben

 

 

 

Ps I apologize that my earlier post were really unclear about this.

[hrothgar]

Now I see where you're comming from....

 

This is an interesting idea. It will only work auctions where you have established an unambiguous game force. Accordingly, many systems like MOSCITO which use game invitational+ relays would need to modify the structure. FOr example, playing MOSCITO

 

1♥ - 1♠ 1♥ = 4+ Spades, 1♠ = game invite+

2♦ - 2♠ 2♦ = Single suited with Spades, 2♠ = Game invite

 

However, it could be applied in a sequence like

 

1♥ - 1♠

2♦ - 2♥

2N

 

At this point in time, we could use 3♣ as relay with (A+K+Q) Denial Cues and RKCB and 3♦ as relay with (A+K) DC and Exclusion.

 

My only worry is whether the relay asker would necessarily be in a position to predict which auction path to follow. Its pretty easy if the relay asker has a void, however, this doesn't always happen. Equally significant, I still worry about stoppers and NT.

 

Need to think about this...

[hrothgar]

I just dropped a line to Paul Marston and asked him if he's played arround with anything similar. Coincidentially, he adopted a similar scheme (roughly) as week ago.

 

Assume that you are in an unambiguously game forcing relay auction. At this point in time,

 

Step = GFR

Step +1 = GFR and excludes RR's longest suit

Step +2 = GFR and excludes RR's second longest suit

 

After resolution, QP's are used. (RR can also zoom and show QP's when appropriate)

 

This scheme looks to have a couple advantages

 

1. The original scheme could run into trouble if RR zooms

2. It looks like this makes more efficient use of bidding space

 

Paul hasn't had enough practical experience to see whether this makes a practical difference at the table or, alternatively, if this is "just" a toy for the bar...