BPO-007B

[Al_U_Card]

I will expect pard to have a solid 8 card suit and the A of H so, 6NT for me.

[Walddk]

I will expect pard to have a solid 8 card suit and the A of H so, 6NT for me.

Really? So he has lost his senses if he bids 5♦ with:

 

♠ x

♥ Ax

♦ KQJ109xxx

♣ KQ

 

or something similar?

 

Roland

[hrothgar]

I will expect pard to have a solid 8 card suit and the A of H so, 6NT for me.

Has partner ever overcalled 5♦?

[Al_U_Card]

Just a feeling thing. It seems we should be in slam and 6NT is reasonable and also avoids the Lightner double opportunities.

[pclayton]

I suspect that some kind of Lebensohl/Rubensohl type treatment would work well here.  We could use 5♥ as a marionette to 5♠ and differentiate between "direct" and "indirect" sequences.  Direct sequences (an immediate) 5♠ or 5NT bid would assume Diamonds as trump.  Indirect sequences would be directed at exploring other strains.

 

It would be interesting to see if any established pairs use similar methods

Richard, Mars called, they have a partner for you in the inter-galactic open pairs.

 

........................................

 

I voted for 5♥. Raising to 6♦ on a void is absurd. If pard is looking at 7 or 8 solid, he can rebid them himself.

 

If pard has heart tolerance, I expect 5N pick-a-slam. If pard has a side club suit, I would have expected 4N. Ergo, pard should expect a 5 card club suit when I bid them over 5N.

 

5♥ really should be forcing, but have you discussed this with your pards?

[luis]

I will expect pard to have a solid 8 card suit and the A of H so, 6NT for me.

Has partner ever overcalled 5♦?

Yes my pd once overcalled 5♦ over 4♠ with KQJ ninth. I had Qxx, Kxxxx, Ax, Axx and decided to bid 6 which was impossible to make but the defense lost his way and pd made the doubled impossible slam for +1540. (Pd's hand was: x,Qx,KQJTxxxxx,x) they lead the club king, pd winning, pd played a low heart from Qx towards the K, they stepped in with the hA and decided pd had a spade void so tried to cash a club, pd ruffed, cashed the hQ, drew 2 trumps ending in dummy and discarded the spade on the heart K.

[Walddk]

5♥ really should be forcing, but have you discussed this with your pards?

No, and is it worth the effort? How often will a situation like this come up? To stay in your world of galaxies: once in a blue moon!

 

Roland

[Al_U_Card]

I will expect pard to have a solid 8 card suit and the A of H so, 6NT for me.

Has partner ever overcalled 5♦?

After having played about 150,000 hands so far,(in this life) and having had 4S opened on my left about 150 times, I can't recall pard ever doing that so I am expecting a nice hand for his call....... :)

[mikeh]

I am with Frances. Sure, it is a complete guess, but this does not make it any the less a legitimate bridge problem. I voted for 5♥ because it opens up the maximal number of possibilities.

 

Pass is right if but only if 5♦ is your best contract. It may not be. It may, in fact, be the only rational spot that fails, if RHO holds a nasty ♦ surprise (and does not double the only contract he can beat).

 

5♥ may be wrong, but it keeps the door open to 6♦ or 6♥ or (very very unlikely) higher spots: imagine hearing a 5♠ cue by partner over 5♥?

 

So while we cannot say where we want to end up, we do know that passing commits us to one contract while bidding offers several possibilities, and each possibility has more or less the same chance of being right.

 

In my view, bridge logic strongly indicates a 5♥ bid as being (and here comes the expert's favourite 'f' word) the most flexible.

[HeartA]

x

x

AKJ109xx

KQxx

 

6C

This last hand is (almost) impossible. parnter would bid 4NT instead of 5D.

[42]

5NT for me, hoping pard will take this as pick-a-slam.

 

Better to play in the right strain, even if at the wrong level.

*hehe* I wait long enough and there is already someone who found the right words for my thoughts...

I also chose 5NT. At least we will not die as chicken...

[mikeh]

x

x

AKJ109xx

KQxx

 

6C

This last hand is (almost) impossible. parnter would bid 4NT instead of 5D.

4N would not even occur to me or, if it did, I would shake my head at the absurdity of the bid and make the normal 5♦.

 

Why is 4N wrong?

 

Because, for most players these days, 4N shows a 2-suited takeout: not a minor suit takeout. Partner is supposed to bid on the basis that you could have any of the 3 possible combinations. He will bid 5♣ with 2=5=3=3, for example. He will bid 5♣ with 3=6=2=2. I doubt that you would enjoy a 5-level contract in violation of Burn's Law of Total Trump :)

 

And, as a second point, 7-4 hands are not generally considered as two-suiters. But change the hand to 1=2=6=4 and my point about NOT bidding 4N remains valid

[whereagles]

5NT for me, hoping pard will take this as pick-a-slam.

 

Better to play in the right strain, even if at the wrong level.

even tho 5♦ MIGHT be the right strain AND right level ??? :) (JOKE all)

If diamonds is the right strain, pard will rebid 6♦ :angry:

[luke warm]

i voted for 5♥ and had no idea what to do...

[Winstonm]

I voted to pass. Partner's bid indicates a 1-suited hand anywhere from 6331 to who knows - he was under pressure to make a call and perhaps my cover cards will offest the trump losers.

 

Winston

[mauro_1946]

Mamma mia !!!!! This is a nigthmare not a pool. Agree with Roland, it's a guess. And agree again with Roland: 5♠........ and this may be the end of nightmare and the beginning of a suicide.

[inquiry]

I think this hand is the hardest of the entire set. There are a number of issues, most of which the panel addressed. One question is if 5♥ forcing? The confusion shown in the members responses to this point in the thread is carried over into the panelist responses. Maybe there isn't a good problem. Let's see what the panel has to say.

 

First there where the timid passers..

 

Beto: Pass. Dont think there is a right answer. As east did not double it, I would pass.. Luis joined in saying, Pass, I wonder where is the lesson in this problem, the following bids can be either a disaster or a great success: pass, 6d, 7d, 5h, 6h, 7h, 6c, 7c. Pick your own poison. Perhpas Luis is correct, this might be more of a psychological test than a bridge lesson test. Certainly anything could be right. But also experts might have a reason for choosing one bid over another. Let's see if anyone comes up with anything better than blind guess (the reason for the question actually). Gabor (ng) also passed, pointing out.. "Pass. Void in partner’s suit is always bad sign. Don’t forget, he wasn’t able to bid his diamonds at lower level. If his suit is not solid, even the heart slam would be doubtful because bad break in hearts or clubs is also likely. Of course, slam (even grand) is possible with good heart or club fit, but we can’t investigate it." Joker_Gib also picked pass, saying. "Humm ! Tough one and anything can be right here ! However, bad breaks are probably there and with a void in partner's suit I don't want to punish him for his courageous bid. (Well done opps for the preempt)"

 

Having gotten the passers out of the way, the remaining pool of players mostly went for bidding some number of hearts. Richie bid 6♥. Bidding 5♥ was Fred, Frances and Jeffrey, MikeH, and Roland. None of the panel choose the imaginative 6♦, nor less off beat 5NT or 5♠ as discussed in this thread. Let's see what the 5♥ bidders had to say.

 

Fred. 5]He] - This is certainly a natural call, but I have no idea if it is supposed to be forcing or not. However, given that we could be going down in 5D while laydown for 7C or 7H, I have to do something. Yes there can be a correct answer to this problem, at least from a probabilistic point of view. Obviously none of the possible actions offers anywhere close to a guarantee of a good result. I think Fred has hit the essential point of the problem in my mind. Partner's biddign of 5♦ didn't assure us diamonds is the best place to play the hand (especially given our void). So bidding on out of greed and fear seems better than passing out of hopelessness.

 

Echoing Fred's thoughts where the other 5♥ bidders. Frances and Jeffrey said, "Obviously a guess, but this has two ways to gain (partner raises, or partner has solid diamonds and we are making slam) and only 1.5 ways to lose (we were making exactly 11 tricks in diamonds). The 1/2 way to lose when we get doubled for 300 in 6D while 5D was only -50. We also decided we didn't like passing 5D when we could be easily cold for a grand (any hand with really solid diamonds and the HA will give 7D play). Having decided to bid, 5H looks clear.

 

MikeH concurred, saying. "5♥: dreading every moment until the auction is over and we are undoubled. Anything could be right. Pass works only when 5♦ is the last reachable making spot, and why should that be? 5♦ may in fact be the only reachable spot that fails: RHO is not going to double the only contract he can beat. Obviously 5♥ comes with no guarantee that it will work, let alone that partner can raise when small slam is cold, or that grand is remotely biddable. However, 5♥ has many ways to win, and somehow fortune seems to favour the bold in these situations."

 

Roland was also on the same track, despite his complaints earlier in this thread that anything could be right. His response was: 5H. Anything can be right (and wrong) here. Maybe 5D was high enough, but we could easily be cold for 6D or 6H, maybe even 6C. On a very good day we have a grand slam on! I'll pass if partner retreats to 6D.

 

Reading the expert commentary, the 5♥ bidders it seem to me to be on sounder ground. They are basing their bidding their choice on something more than "anything can be right." Also, I suspect richie meant to bid 5♥ rather than 6, but even if he meant to bid 6, it shows he favors doing something to passing. So despite the tie between pass and 5♥ (each with four votes), I have upgraded 5♥ to the top spot. We never did answer the question of rather 5♥ was forcing or not. But the insight into why bid 5♥ on this anything can be right hand, I think, proved (at least for me) that this was indeed a good problem. I am glad I included it.

 

Votes

5♥ 4, score 100

Pass. 4. score 80

6♥, 1 score 40

5NT. 0. score 20

[Echognome]

Is 6♥ receiving a score of 60 also a typo? <_<

 

I can see why 5♥ is a nice "flexible" action, but 6♥ is unilateral. 6♥ might also be a ridiculous place and doesn't involve partner at all.

[inquiry]

Is 6♥ receiving a score of 60 also a typo? <_<

 

I can see why 5♥ is a nice "flexible" action, but 6♥ is unilateral. 6♥ might also be a ridiculous place and doesn't involve partner at all.

Hey, Richie is my buddy... I can give him a boosted score... :-)

 

It was a typo. I meant to give 30 or 40. So I have made 40. BTW, I really think he meant to bid 5♥, not 6.. .but since he was busy, he didn't explain his bids. On the other hand, Richie is a VERY CREATIVE thinker. He may have thought up a great reason why 6♥ is best.

[Free]

why is 5♥ getting a higher score than pass, when there's the same number of expert-votes? <_<

[inquiry]

why is 5♥ getting a higher score than pass, when there's the same number of expert-votes? <_<

Because Richie also choose to bid, so the bidders out numbered the passers. Also, if I had a vote (I don't, but I consider myself a tie-breaker), I would have bid 5♥. And finally, I think the logic shown in bidding 5♥ as a group was better than the logic shown by those choosing pass.

[han]

Good interesting problem. Let's please not argue about the scoring, you can't win any candy Frederick :rolleyes:.

[Free]

Good interesting problem. Let's please not argue about the scoring, you can't win any candy Frederick B).

lol, i'm just trying to understand how the scores are calculated... :ph34r:

[inquiry]

Good interesting problem. Let's please not argue about the scoring, you can't win any candy Frederick :P.

lol, i'm just trying to understand how the scores are calculated... B)

The bid with the most points gets 100.

 

If two bids tie for the most votes, I decide which one I like the most, and give it the 100, but I am often persuaded here by other factors. For instance, if one of the bid is pass, and the other is a forward going bid, and there were other forward going bids, then pass will probably be downgraded.

 

Then the bid with the second most panel votes get the second highest score, and so on. Occassionally, I upgrade a bid with only one vote above some bids with more votes. This is always a case like this... the winning bid is forcing to slam, the other bids are signoff except for the one stand alone bid, which also forces to slam (and most likely the same one), but just by a different route. One has to remember, there in seldom only "one" right bid.

 

For other scores, it depends a little on the size of the vote. If there were a lot of scatterred votes, usually the score will be somethong like 100, 80, 60. If there was a clear winner, the scores will usually be somethiong like 100, 60, 40. If there was 9-1 vote, the scores will usually be 100, 50 or 100 and less than 50.

 

It there are two clear choices, the votes are often 100-90.

 

This is not a science, nor is it an art. It simply meant to be fun (and not a source for wagering). There are people who refuse to partipate in voting because they want a more calibrated scoring system. Their loss, but hopefully they still can read the expert thoughts on the hands. There is always something to learn from the choices... yes, even the bad choices they occassionally make, because they are so generous to share their thoughts with us.

 

Ben

[Echognome]

I agree entirely that we only score for fun.

 

I also understand that the panelists are volunteering their time to participate in the poll and certainly appreciate reading their insights.

 

All that being said, I think it might be insightful to hear not only about why panelists chose a certain bid, but also why they didn't choose other bids. Panelists will often do this naturally on some problems. But it would be helpful if they could discuss all bids they might be thinking about and then rate and more importantly discuss those bids. I think it's a greater lessen for those that are trying to learn to not only know the winning way to thinking, but also what to avoid.

 

Ultimately it is up to the panelists what they would like to share with us and I am happy with their current efforts. I am only making a request as one member of their reading audience.