I don't know what your take out double means

[Badmonster]

I want to preface the question with some information. At online brige I guess I have to classify myself as an intermediate, because when I classify myself as a beginner, people say, no - you're an intermediate. But at bridge in general, what's the exact phrase for totally clueless? Most of my partners are also intermediates. My regular partners are all smart, lovely witty people. But they are not bridge pros. So, what I'm asking here, is if the blind are leading the lame, am I the blind one or the lame one?

If opps open, and parter makes a direct, not take out x, is it reasonable to expect that he doesn't have three cards + cards in opps bid suit, and he does have at least three cards in the other suits UNLESS, he has a hand too strong to overcall a suit directly, in which case he ought to have big points and a five card suit he plans to bid?

 

The reason this troubles me, is because it's not one person, I see this all the time. It's like no one trusts p to balance, or no one wants to defend with a balanced 12-14 point hand. Then when opps buy the contract and you try to defend, you have to make some decisions based on the bidding, and if p has four cards in the suit opps opened and 2 cards in some other suit, you're not really making rational decisions. The thing is, I have a sneaking suspicion that as I glare at p on the screen (quietly, and p can't see me do it) that maybe I'm the one who's wrong. I'm often the one who's wrong.

[Winstonm]

Might be best to start with some terms. Direct seat double is a takeout double. The standard for this is to show the equivalent of an opening hand with support for the unbid suits - this is the start. It can be confusing when you read about other types of doubles, like power doubles and equal level conversion - just remember that these other types are not considered the norm.

 

The most important card to learn to use correctly is the green card (pass). If you can learn when to pass then when to bid will be automatic.

 

Winston

[jillybean]

Hi,

 

you may find this thread useful :P

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=3118

[DrTodd13]

What irritates me are "advanced" or better players who make a minimum bid in response to partner's take-out double with 9+ points. Fortunately for them, the take-out doubler usually doesn't know how to respond to a take-out doubler either so they will raise partner's minimum response on almost any hand. I very often see 11 or 12 pt hands making minimum responses and I was told a couple days ago of a case where responder made a minimum bid with 16 points.

[han]

Usually the take-out double is exactly as you (=Badmonster) describe: about an opening bid with support for the three unbid suits. The perfect hand for a take-out double of 1D would be something like:

 

AJxx

KJxx

x

KJxx

 

Of course, you don't get the perfect hand very often, so you might also make a take-out double of 1D with each of the following hands:

 

AJxx

Kxx

xx

Axxx (I think this one is absolutely clear.)

 

AJxx

Axxx

x

Qxxx (only 11 HCP, but perfect shape. Clear X for me.)

 

Q10x

AJ10x

xxx

AKx (not pleasant but passing and 1NT are not attractive either. I double.)

 

AJ10x

Kxxxx

xx

Ax (The side doubleton is bad, but at least it is in a minor. I prefer double over 1H.)

 

AQJ10xx

x

AQx

AKx (And there probably are people who would bid 1S even with a hand this good!)

 

It would be interesting if anybody objects to a double with any of these hands.

This is definitely not a take-out double of 1D:

 

AQxx

xx

Kxxx

Axx

 

The correct call is of course pass, as you say, but for many beginning players that is a tough call to make with an opening hand.

[barmar]

An excellent source of information on this topic is Mike Lawrence's book "The Complete Book on Takeout Doubles". It explains standard takeout doubles and how to respond to them, as well as all the variants: balancing doubles, responsive doubles, snapdragon, etc.

 

But as Hannie says, your description is basically correct. What you've discovered is that there are many people who play online but don't really know standard bidding. Self-assigned ratings are generally meaningless -- I consider myself intermediate because I make lots of silly mistakes, but have to call myself advanced because I've discovered that I'm at least as good as most other "advanced" players on BBO.

[Chamaco]

I'd like to add just a few lines on the topic of the takeout double.

 

I am far from advanced/expert, but reading many posts and books bystrong players, it appears to me that there is often two schools of thoughts about offshape takeout double:

 

- some players are quite consistent in passing offshape hands, even with a good opening hand.

E.g. RHO opens 1C and we hold Axx-QJx-Kxx-Axxx

They argue that there is no rush in entering the auction immediately with some hnds, and that it might be worth waiting the developments

 

- some other think that, in some cases, it is feasible to double a little offshape if/when this is compensated by extra hcp (e.g. the point count is not 12 but in the 14 range or better).

So, with the above example, they would double, arguing "In quick-outquick", meaning that it's better to show immediately the values, taking a chance while the bidding is at the 1 level, rather than wait the second round of bidding, when the the auction might be at the 2/3 level, and our partnership might be under a great pressure in th decision to compete for a partscore (or even game!).

 

 

All this is only meant to point out that it would be not unusual to find GOOD partners who will make an offshape takeout double when his/her judgment sugests so.

Everybody likes to make textbook takeout doubles but the world is not ideal, and sometimes we need to stretch for the least imperfection :lol:

[42]

Hannie described already different hands for t/o Dbls. Some additional words: it is not good "to lie" about the majors since the goal is most often to play there. So, if you make a t/o DBL over a minor opening, you should be 4-4 in the majors, perhaps 4-3 with a stronger hand (14+), but not 3-3. If the opening was in a major, you should have 4 cards in the other major, the rest-distribution can be imperfect.

The less cards you have in the unbid major(s) the more cards you have in opener's suit OR you can overcall with a suit to show length.

The more cards you have in opener's suit, the more you are interested in a penalty DBL, you sit behind the the strong man and the gain might be higher as if you play yourself. With a NT distribution you only want to play in NT when you have chances to make it, therefore you need to be stronger than only 12-14 pts.

You cannot yet expect much from your partner since it is not clear what 3. hand has, therefore your partner should "know" where you belong, even with a weak hand because you want to minimise the risk for your side to go down doubled for a million, the weaker you are, the more trumps are needed ;).

With an imperfect distribution and HCPs nothing is lost when you pass because your partner will reopen the bidding if he has something to say or when he can see that you were not able to take some action before (--> 3. man passed, who has all the points? 4th man is short in the opening suit etc., etc.)

For some players it is hard to pass because they are so excited about their points and want to show all their jewellery, even when it is too early. Better be a tiger and wait for the victim to come along than to become tiger food yourself!

I hope I didn't mumble too much confusing stuff (in this case my fingers are guilty, they were in typing mood...)

Caren

[luke warm]

If opps open, and parter makes a direct, not take out x, is it reasonable to expect that he doesn't have three cards + cards in opps bid suit, and he does have at least three cards in the other suits UNLESS, he has a hand too strong to overcall a suit directly, in which case he ought to have big points and a five card suit he plans to bid?

if i understand you correctly, a double in direct seat is for takeout and doubler should have support for all suits (unless s/he plans to bid again)... as for bidding again, most play that this shows extra strength... that's why the hand han gave

 

AJ10x

Kxxxx

xx

Ax

 

is a difficult one... if you x here and partner bids 2♣, what do you do? i'm not saying that x is wrong, but i am saying that if you x and if pard bids 2♣, you need to seriously consider passing... reason is, a bid now will show at least a king more than you have... as todd said, responding to a takeout x should be structured also... i use klinger's 'rule of 15' (it might not be his) to double, so it's often less than an opening hand.. it's hcp + 2 for each card under 3 in opps' suit... so with 4414 hand over 1♦ i'd x with 11 hcp... with 4405 i'd x with 9 hcp