BPO-007A

[inquiry]

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=sa6hqj7da9754caj5]133|100|Scoring: IMP

BPO-007A

 

West North East South

 

   -     1♥    (1♠)    2♠

(Pass) 3♥   (Pass)   ?

 

You might have preferred two diamonds to 2♠, but this hand was taken from world class event and south's choice was 2♠. Your bid?

[/hv]

 

You still have 8 hours to submit your poll answers to pigpenz, but we will open the discussion of this hand. IF you haven't submitted your answers yet and you want to compete, please send them now!!! Deadline is today by 11PM EST.

[hrothgar]

This was my favorite hand of the set, in that it raises a number of interesting questions: Most notably:

 

1.What is the minimum strength necessary for a 1M and 1m opening playing BBO Advanced? This isn't specified anywhere in the system (moreover it needs to be).

 

2.What did partner's 3H bid mean? Clearly partner has a minimum hand. He is rejecting game opposite a limit raise. However, what would 3C or 3D by partner mean? Can we assume that partner is flat?

 

3.Is game a reasonable gamble after partner rebids 3H (Answer = yes. Hell, slam can make opposite some perfect minimums but we gave up on intelligent slam exploration when we decided to bid 2S rather than 2D. From my perspective, Diamond support is critical to find good slams)

 

4.What is the best game after parter rebids 3H. (Answer = 3N) I ran a few simulations. 3NT looks to be a better proposition. 4H requires that the Hearts behave. 3N requires something good in Hearts or Diamonds.

 

5.Here's the kicker... Can we play in 3NT? We have established an eight card major suit fit with at least game invitational values. (If we bid 3NT “to play”, this strongly suggests that we were holding enough point to force to game). In short, is 3NT natural or “Serious”.

 

I'm generally pretty comfortable using the whole “game before slam” philosophy. Given that partner has rejected a game try, I'd like to be able to bid 3NT to play rather reserving it for Serious 3NT. However, it will be interesting to see other opinions.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

may only question was, does 2S already force to game,

not for me, hence for me, 3H shows a minimum opening

bid, I am still bidding 3S as a cue, but it wont accomplish

anything and being in a lazy mood, I would often just bid 4H.

 

Marlowe

 

PS: To answer Hrothgars 5th question: No.

[Walddk]

Without revealing how I cast my vote, I would like to point out that 2♠ as limit+ is bad. I think it's paramount to be able to distinguish between a limit raise and a GF hand. One way of playing this is to let the cue bid be limit and keep 2NT as the GF raise. In other words: ignore the overcall and respond 2NT as you would have done without interference.

 

Reverse it if you like, but don't let 2♠ contain it all.

 

What do I do with 11-12, no heart fit and spade stopper(s) you may ask. Just double and bid NT next.

 

Finally, 2♦ is clearly better than a heart raise at this point. I want 4+ cards if I support to the 3-level or higher.

 

Roland

[mikeh]

Oh well, a partnership between Roland and me looks far off, even assuming we can resolve the war issue over Hans 0 :rolleyes:

 

I am very comfortable with the cue being a limit raise or better, altho I am not so comfortable with its use on this hand: 2♦ seems far superior. My vote and comment will be revealed in due course.

 

As for 3N: in some of my partnerships this is a suggestion of a contract, in others it shows slam interest while denying either black Ace (it implies but does not promise 2nd round ♠ control).

[luis]

I love to have a partnership with somebody with completely different ideas than me, you learn more when you can discuss different ideas as long as you are civilized so I would put Roland in my list of pds to be :-)

 

I have no problems with 2♠ being a limit raise or better with 3 cards keeping 2NT for the raises with 4 cards. The number of trumps is important to me. Having said this I prefer 2♠ to 2♦ because in competitive auctions bids that don't show support deny it. If LHO is going to raise to 4♠ pd will be more interested in knowing I have 3 card heart support than a diamond suit. So I agree with 2♠ over 2♦ I would have bid the same at the table.

 

About the meaning of 3NT I have a partnership rule saying that 3NT is not to play when we have discovered a 9 card fit in a major, since 2♠ is a 3 card raise 3NT would be choice of games according to my agreements with my pd.

 

This doesn't say a single word about what I voted since that would be revealed later but it shows what I think about 2♠/2♦ and the meaning of 3NT. Maybe it's interesting.

 

Luis

[cherdano]

I am with Luis on 2♠/2N and 2♦. I voted for 4♥ and thought wtp - 3N didn't occur to me with only on stopper and so many controls, slam seems far away if partner couldn't even make a game try, and I am certainly not stopping in 3♥.

 

Arend

[Walddk]

Mike, look at this ....

 

1♥ pass ?

 

Everybody can tell their partners if they have a limit or GF+ raise (you too I assume), but .....

 

1♥ 1♠ ?

 

So the simple overcall of 1♠ has put you off? You give up and let 2♠ be either limit or GF!? Sorry, I don't understand why you accept to be worse off than you would have been without the non space consuming overcall.

 

I remember how Sabine Auken, as a BBO vugraph commentator, once said: "It's damaging to your further investigations if the cue bid can be a little of everything". I couldn't agree more.

 

Roland

[cherdano]

Roland, this may be shocking to you, but many play

1♥ pass 2N

as a limit+ raise with 4-card support.

[kenrexford]

This auction is interesting to me as well. 2S definitionally appears to establish a fit. What of Opener's 3H? This does not logically seem to say ONLY that Openwer has a minimum. For instance, 2NT would seem to show a minimum with a spade stopper and interest in 3NT, unless 2NT is deemed initially slammish. Similarly, side bids (3C, 3D) should have definition, potentially game-aspirational.

 

I have no idea what the conventional wisdom is as to 3C, 3D, 2NT as alternatives to 3H. Without this knowledge, I profess ignorance.

[Gerben42]

I forgot what I voted but I prefer 2NT as limit raise and 2♠ as GF raise in ♥.

[HeartA]

I just saw the new PBO minutes ago and PM to pigpenz a minute ago.

[Echognome]

I bid 3♠ as another slam try. As a BPO hedge, if we are going to play in 3NT, it will be better from partner's side. (If partner has Qx(x) of spades, it is better to keep the overcaller on lead.) Partner will probably hate me after this hand for making 2 cue-bids.

[whereagles]

I bid 3♠. Hopefully pard will take this as control + extras, slam try. Hopefully he will also know I don't have a singleton because I didn't splinter!

[luke warm]

i had my rose colored glasses on and bid 4nt ...

[Free]

3♠ for me, still hoping for slam...

[Blofeld]

I forgot to vote in the poll, but had mentally bid 4♥ here. Slam seems too far off.

 

It didn't occur to me to try for 3NT, but I will believe Richard's simulations, and I think that 3NT ought to be an offer to play on this auction.

[Dwingo]

3♠

My hand is too strong , not to make a slam try. With as little as xxx, AKxxxx, KQ,xxx slam is still possible.

 

My problem is what would I do if I hear 4♣ instead of 4♦. Is it possible if he can have ♣K and ♦K? If he bids 4♣, how do I find about ♦K?

[Double !]

another 3 spade bidder am I

 

see what shakes out. If p happens to now bid 3NT, what is wrong with this contract at imps. I agree that partner's 3H rebid sounds like declining a game try, and i agree with RW that this hand raises the question of the meanings of a 3club/diamond rebid by opener in response to 2S. (A suit, maybe? hand strength not yet defined?) A 4 diamond response by opener to 3 spades doesn't suddenly promise a slam: if opener is Kxx in diamonds and xx in spades, we aren't making 12 tricks before the opps get 2 unless he has stiff club king or KQ tight. Chances are we are playing in either 3NT or 4 hearts, but, like chicken soup, it couldn't hurt to ask for additional information on the way to 4 hearts.

 

DHL

 

ps: I thought that this was a very difficult set of hands.

[HeartA]

i had my rose colored glasses on and bid 4nt ...

same here.

 

I have all the side Aces and precious HQJx support. 3S? what do you expect to hear from pd, who doesn't have any side ace, and lack of HQJ?

[luke warm]

well buddy, that's 2 of us with zero :P

[HeartA]

well buddy, that's 2 of us with zero B)

whatever score they give to me doesn't matter. I marked 4NT as 10 and 0 for other choices. :P :P :P

[Winstonm]

I don't quite follow the slam ambitions....2S is traditionally limit raise or better and partner has said with 3H that we shouldn't be in game opposite a limit raise - so now I punish him with 4N?

 

I suspect he holds a normal xxx, AKxxx, Qxx, Kx or the like and he have about zero play for 6H and not much better chance of making 5.

 

In restrospect, without having started with a diamond bid it will be hard for pard to know what cards are seriously working and what are not - about the best I can do is bid 3S and see if partner can bid 4D - and even then it's not clear if that is concentration of honors or just a single control.

 

I'm more inclined to simply raise to 4H than Blackwood the hand.

 

Winston

[han]

I bid 4H, I think that slam is very unlikely and I am very suspicious/surprised of hrothgar's claim that 3NT plays better than 4H (not to suggest that hrothgar is lying or that I don't think he is capable of running a correct simulation, quite the contrary. My judgement just tells me that 4H from partner's side is a better contract on average than 3NT from my side. I know, my judgement has been wrong before).

 

If I did try for 3NT then I would bid 3♠, if partner bids it then I'd be quite happy to play there.

 

On the side issue.. I also like 2S to show 3-card support and 2NT 4-card support (or rather, 2NT a higher ODR than 2S) and both limit+. This seems a more useful distinction than GF-limit. I also play 1♥-2NT = limit+, it frees up one bid for other purposes.

[42]

I bid 3♠ as another slam try.  As a BPO hedge, if we are going to play in 3NT, it will be better from partner's side.  (If partner has Qx(x) of spades, it is better to keep the overcaller on lead.)  Partner will probably hate me after this hand for making 2 cue-bids.

I bid 3♠, too, with Matt's reasoning.