MI Problem

[Echognome]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=saqj94haqj98d53c4]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1NT* - (2NT)[/hv]

*12-14

 

You are playing in a pivot teams where both current partnerships are relatively unfamiliar. The scoring is actually total points, but not so important to the problem at hand.

 

The problem is that 2NT is not alerted. LHO actually thinks awhile about whether he is going to alert 2NT and eventually does not.

 

What do you do?

[Gerben42]

I double!

 

I will later tell the director that I suspected misinformation but had no way to explore the hand since partner will never play me for this much with 30+ HCP gone.

[hotShot]

Missread the auction please ignore

 

Gerben 2NT (not alerted) is invitational, so it is only 24-25 gone. This leaves partner with 3HCP at most. With that he won't make a move of his own.

 

To the case, don't think about missinformation now. Maybe the result of wests thinking was the correct agreement. The bridge laws require you to act as if the information was right. If you don't do that, you carry the risk of loosing your right to an adjusted score.

 

I can't think of a better bid than dbl. Your partner knows that NT bidder usually hold more minors than majors and he can asume that you need to have some distribution to act now. If he passes 2NT X, he will lead a major.

Edited January 25, 2006 by hotShot

[mr1303]

If I've got this right, partner opened 1NT (12-14) and my RHO has overcalled 2NT, not alerted.

 

What is a "natural" 2NT overcall anyway? Some strong 2 suiter? I think I'll ask whatever happens.

[Finch]

It's not really an MI problem, because you know RHO has the minors, and your partner will guess that to be the case.

 

I shall double for the time being.

When I then bid a major next round that will sound forcing.

 

What I'm not going to do is bid 3m, although that might be theoretically best, because partner will think it's natural (don't forget another possible, old-fashioned meaning, of 2NT is a very strong 2-suiter - in that case our 3m is natural and probably non-forcing).

[Gerben42]

Isn't the auction so far partner 1NT, RHO 2NT?

Partner will read the situation as follows:

 

1NT (weak) from him

2NT (about 20 HCP balanced) from LHO

 

That's 30+ gone is it not. If you think this is a crazy method, complain to Mike Lawrence, I happen to like 2NT natural here.

 

See "Double!" by Mike Lawrence, page 122.

 

Anyway, I will not be able to tell partner I actually have slam interest. I will do my best though. I start by doubling.

[david_c]

It's not really an MI problem, because you know RHO has the minors, and your partner will guess that to be the case.

 

[...]

 

What I'm not going to do is bid 3m, although that might be theoretically best, because partner will think it's natural (don't forget another possible, old-fashioned meaning, of 2NT is a very strong 2-suiter - in that case our 3m is natural and probably non-forcing).

You say it's not a MI problem, but if you can't bid 3m because partner might interpret it as natural, doesn't that mean you possibly have been damaged by the MI?

[Finch]

OK, possibly.

I suppose I meant that I haven't really been misinformed, because I suspect what's going on.

 

Anyway, it sounds from the description as if the most likely explanation is "we haven't discussed it" in which case there isn't any MI.

[Echognome]

Well, I'm sure I did the wrong thing. Granted this in context of being 4250 total points up with 8 boards to play. I asked LHO (since he fidgeted) if they had any agreements. He said "I am not sure and I cannot remember." I thought, that's fair enough, I must assume they have no agreement. I bid 3♣ thinking partner would figure out that 2NT would be minors. Partner didn't alert. Oops. LHO passed and partner bid 3NT with RHO passing. I thought long and hard about what my logical alternatives are since I now had UI. I decided to pass and partner made 11 tricks (we had 12 available in hearts). RHO did have 66 in the minors. Nothing was said after the hand and I felt that was fine.

 

I asked some of the guys at the pub after who thought I should have called the TD who could then send LHO away from the table and RHO could explain their agreement (that is IF they had one). Then we could establish what OUR agreements are. Now assuming their agreement was "no agreement", then the suggestion was to double. You will presumably hear a minor by one of the opps, most likely RHO, and then you have a cue-bid available to show both majors. I asked partner (who has played for England) what she thought my 3♣ bid meant and she thought natural and forcing. Since 2NT usually shows some big (or in this case distributional) 2 suiter, I think her reasoning was quite sound. I was at least grateful that it was forcing, else I might have had fun playing in a 3-1 fit.

[whereagles]

If 2NT is natural, pass is normal.

If 2NT is clubs and/or minors, a 3♣ cue would be in order.

 

So pass and call director later if RHO ends up with minor(s).

[mikeh]

If 2NT is natural, pass is normal.

If 2NT is clubs and/or minors, a 3♣ cue would be in order.

 

So pass and call director later if RHO ends up with minor(s).

If 2N is natural (and who has ever played that: don't all good players start with double of the weak 1N when holding a balanced 20 count?), then pass is silly: you have them going for their lives: double! Besides, they cannot hold 20 hcp: your hand tells you that and no committee is going to credit any assertion by you that you thought that was what might be happening.

 

Double may smoke out RHO (LHO is confused and will be relieved to be able to pass... altho not without running a risk) and RHO will be in a pickle: can RHO run based on the table action telling him/her that partner has no idea what was intended?

 

Even if there was no agreement, the fact that LHO seems to have clearly considered alerting and then passed might create an issue.

 

Anyway, that is not your problem. Either you defend 2N doubled or you cue whichever minor RHO bids (after calling the director... if you intend to call, call before you bid)

 

Passing and then calling is wrong. It is entirely possible that RHO took a chance by making a bid knowing that they had no agreement. If that is so, then you are not entitled to relief if LHO passes and they go down 8 tricks (400) against your 680 or 1430. The opps do not get penalized for making bids with no agreement.

[whereagles]

Passing and then calling is wrong.

No. If 2NT was a transfer to clubs or minors, then I got the wrong explanation (in this case no explanation), and I am entitled to a redress.

 

Note that if 2NT was clubs/minors, with the right explanation, I could cue 3♣ to show my hand.

[pigpenz]

seems like the easiest thing to do is just double :rolleyes:

[han]

I didn't know that there were total point games with directors, cool!

 

For the following I'm going to ignore the not-alert.

 

I would double, planning to bid 4 of the minor they bid. I'm pretty sure that partner would interpret this as both majors. Matt, if 2NT is for the minors then what would your 3C bid show, both majors? Without agreements I would interpret this as a good hand with hearts. Another option is that it shows a club stopper, asking for a diamond stopper (or the other way around if you prefer).

[Echognome]

When they show both minors, 3♣ should show ♥ better than ♠. Given a correct alert, I should probably bid 3♦ showing ♠ better than ♥ and then I can rebid ♥. However, it's gonna be a delicate proposition no matter what i do as I want to agree a suit and then cuebid.

[han]

So both 3C and 3D show both majors with better corresponding major and with a single suiter you just bid 3M? Sounds good!

[Finch]

Passing and then calling is wrong.

No. If 2NT was a transfer to clubs or minors, then I got the wrong explanation (in this case no explanation), and I am entitled to a redress.

 

Note that if 2NT was clubs/minors, with the right explanation, I could cue 3♣ to show my hand.

You are not entitled to redress if they actually have no agreement. You are only entitled to know their agreed methods, and it's quite possible they don't have any.

[barmar]

No. If 2NT was a transfer to clubs or minors, then I got the wrong explanation (in this case no explanation), and I am entitled to a redress.

You are not automatically entitled to redress. First you have to be damaged by the misinformation. If you're able to determine from your hand and general bridge knowledge what the correct meaning of the bid was, and your partner does the same, you might not be damaged.

 

So you can't stop "playing bridge" just because you'll be protected by claiming misinformation.

[Finch]

I didn't know that there were total point games with directors, cool!

There's a national KO in the UK called the Hubert Phillips Bowl in which you play a third of your boards with each of your team-mates. It's scored by total points with honours counting, and the team has to have at least one man and one woman.

 

Counties sometimes run their own events based on the same format.

 

Total points is a very biased form of scoring: let's just say it doesn't encourage light protections in partscore battles...

[whereagles]

So you can't stop "playing bridge" just because you'll be protected by claiming misinformation.

I'm not stopping playing bridge when I pass. It is not obvious at all 2NT is artificial.

 

I'll accept a bad score if RHO psyched, but I will want to know later whether 2NT was artificial or not. If it was, then I can claim damage. I will also claim redress if opps have "no agreement" in such a trivial situation as 1NT-2NT. That is not acceptable above beginner level.

[Blofeld]

I will also claim redress if opps have "no agreement" in such a trivial situation as 1NT-2NT. That is not acceptable above beginner level.

?

 

Have you never sat down with a decent partner without having discussed this auction? Not a regular partner, sure, but it's fine to bid things without having agreements as to their meaning.

[Finch]

I will also claim redress if opps have "no agreement" in such a trivial situation as 1NT-2NT. That is not acceptable above beginner level.

You can claim it, but you won't get it. There is no redress for the opponents (genuinely) not knowing what they play in a particular auction, whatever level they are. You have no redress if LHO opens 1C and RHO doesn't know if it's Acol, SA, Polish or Precision. The TD might not believe RHO, but that's another matter....

 

It's also not a trivial situation at all. If I sat down with a random partner to play, I doubt very much we'd discuss this situation until we'd covered a lot more important ground first. If he bid it at the table, I wouldn't know if it was a very strong 2-suiter or both minors, and the best I could say would be "no agreement". (In fact I would alert it as I was certain it wasn't natural. But let's not get into a discussion of the alerting regs, they aren't the point.)

 

The only difference is that I wouldn't impose the call on partner, as I know it's not obvious what it means. But if I'd been taught that "standard Acol" is a strong 2-suiter, and nothing else, I might well assume that's what partner will think.

[whereagles]

I will also claim redress if opps have "no agreement" in such a trivial situation as 1NT-2NT. That is not acceptable above beginner level.

You can claim it, but you won't get it. There is no redress for the opponents (genuinely) not knowing what they play in a particular auction, whatever level they are.

I wouldn't be so sure. Last Bermuda Bowl, a pair in the transnational open teams got a penalty for not having agreements on a simple sequence.