A Problem hand for Relayers

[Echognome]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=skxxhkqxdktxcajxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠ - 1NT ®

2♣ - 2♦ ®

2♠ - 2NT ®

3♣ - 3♦ ®

3♥ - ?[/hv]

 

Your partner opened a 10-15 1♠. You relay and find out that partner is exactly 5=1=2=5.

 

Your choices are now:

 

3♠ = demands partner bid controls starting at 2

3NT = To play

4♣ = weak relay. Partner bids 4♦ unless 14-15, 4+ controls. If partner bids 4♦, then he expects you to simply place the contract.

4♠ = suggestion to play, but mild slam interest

[Echognome]

I reread my title and it sounds odd. I do not believe this is a "problem hand", I'm just offering a problem for relayers.

[MickyB]

4♣ seems routine - I need two aces, the king of clubs and some fillers to make slam a good bet here.

[hrothgar]

Its a bit difficult to make an informed decision without knowing a bit more about the auction termination structure. In particular, what are the continuations after 3♠ and 4♣. I'd assume that you're using denial cue bids after 3♠ and some for of CAB after 4♣, but it would be nice to confirm.

 

My gut tells me to start with 3♠. Two steps of bidding space is a wonderful thing. As Mike has already noted, the three most critical cards for slam are the Ace of Spades, the Ace of Diamonds and the King of Clubs. If we are showing "controls" and not Slam points, 3♠ allows me to focus on the most critical information ASAP and still signoff below 4♠. (Its very convenient that Relay Asker has all those Kings) In contrast, a 4♣ bid could misfire badly if partner has a "soft" 14 count.

 

The difficult question is what to do if partner shows 4 controls. I'd like to be in slam if partner tables:

 

AQJxx

x

Ax

QT9xx

 

Here I return to my original point regarding the need to understand followup sequences.

[MickyB]

Oh, sorry, mistook "4+ controls" for greater than four. Now I see why this was posted :rolleyes:

 

I still prefer 4♣. Getting too high will require pard to have precisely two aces, not the king of clubs and a load of soft values, and slam could still be on a finesse. If I bid 3♠ and partner shows 5 controls, I'll be too high before I know if he has either of the black queens.

[Echognome]

Controls for an opener start at 2. So the responses to 3♠ are quite simple:

 

3NT = 2 controls, 4♣ = 3 controls, etc.

 

Then the next step is a relay starting denial cue-bidding.

 

Any bid other than the next step is to play.

 

In response to the 4♣ bid, responses are:

 

4♦ = Not 14-15hcp AND 4+ controls

4♥ = 14-15hcp AND 4 controls

4♠ = 14-15hcp AND 5 controls

etc..

 

After a 4♥+ response, the next step is a relay starting denial cue-bidding and any other bid is to play.

[Guest Jlall]

even if partner has 5 controls slam could be terrible.

 

Axxxx

x

Ax

Kxxxx

 

Asking for controls does not seem like the answer here.

 

I would try 4C.

[awm]

4♣ for me also. Fifty-percent slams do not need to be bid (the expected score is equal whether they are bid or not) and most slams "on a finesse" are not fifty-percent because unusual lies of the cards like a 5-0 trump break will also often defeat them.

 

To make a slam we need partner to have two aces (otherwise we're off two cashing). We also need clubs to play for one loser, which will be fifty-percent at best unless partner has ♣K. So that's five controls needed, and Justin's example hand doesn't make slam good either.

 

By bidding 4♣ I'm only losing one step, since five controls will now be 4♠ instead of 4♥. The problem is that I don't know what to do opposite "five controls" if it can be A-A-K and nothing else, whereas "five controls and 14-15" will almost always give decent odds for slam (if partner has points in suits, then this will normally be the needed A-A-K plus either both black queens or one black queen and the spade jack; in any case slam is at least on a finesse).

 

A serious (in my view anyway) problem with relays in the symmetric style is that it can be very hard to locate queens. On a hand like this, five controls plus two queens makes slam virtually laydown (in clubs, not spades). Five controls and nothing else makes slam virtually no-play, and even the five-level is not without risk. If partner's hand resolves via number of controls, then locates controls by denial cuebids, you're often at the six level before you even find out if partner has an outside queen!

 

This is a major reason Sam and I switched to 3-2-1 points and a method where queens receive serious weight earlier in the relay sequence.

[han]

4!c seems the perfect bid.

[cherdano]

I am satisfied with bidding 4♠ here. The ONLY hand where I want to be in slam is specifically ♠AQxxx ♥x ♦Ax ♣KQxxx, and partner may go on with that. With any other hand, the slam will be on a finesse (or club queen dropping) at best, and usually on a finesse+3-2 break in spades.

 

If partner shows 5 controls and 14-15 hcp over 4♣, slam is about 50% on average. Since I will be on a guess after 4♣ anyway, I may just do this guess now, with the upside that partner can go on with the perfect hand.

 

Arend

[Echognome]

Note that partner will not know whether to go on. You will not be at a guess as long as you are willing to go to the 5 level opposite a maximum with 4+ controls.

[cherdano]

Note that partner will not know whether to go on. You will not be at a guess as long as you are willing to go to the 5 level opposite a maximum with 4+ controls.

I don't see how you can find out about both black queens on the 5-level (and I would go on opposite 5 controls only, of course).

 

It is really a pitty we don't have the ♦Q, as that would often require them to find the heart lead.

 

Arend

[luke warm]

i'd bid 3♠ and continue relaying over 4♦... i'd sign off over 3nt or 4♣ (which i expect)

[luis]

Under your description of my options 4♣ looks clear.

[Free]

Agree with Luis, 4♣ seems the most reasonable bid here.