Echognome Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 [hv=d=e&v=n&s=st7hq82dk96ckqj85]133|100|Scoring: IMP(1NT)* - P - (2♣) - P(2♥) - P - (3♥) - X(P) - ?[/hv]*12-142♣ stayman3♥ inv to game What does partner have for this double? What is your call now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Since it's imps, I don't think that's penalty :lol: I'll bid 4♣ and pass if opps continue to 4♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 what would a double of 2C stayman have meant ? Some people play that a double of stayman is a sort of power double, others that it is lead directing for clubs. IMO this influences the meaning of this second round double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted January 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 It's a pickup partnership. Although you've played together several times before, you don't have detailed agreements about what a double of 2♣ would have been. I would assume by default it shows either a penalty double of 1NT or a lead director in clubs. If it helps, your partner is a junior English player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcLight Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 It looks like a Lightner double to me, asking for an unusual lead, usually the lead of dummys bid suit. Usually one hopes for a ruff. Isn't the standard meaning of a double of Stayman a request for a Club lead? What bothers me is Dummy has really bid one or both majors, not clubs.The NT bidder presumably has 2-4 clubs, we have 5, so Dummy would need 4+ Clubs for pard to have a void.I don't think this is likely as pard wont have a void.Clubs are still an attractive suit to lead. The other explanation is pard wants a lead of the other major, Spades.Whats he holding AKQ?How can he have that, and I have 11 HCP (20), Declarer has 12-14 and the Dummy bidding 3 hearts implies some kind of raise, unless its preemptive?What does dummy have 5-4 or better, great shape, with few HCP?How are they going to get their tricks, outside of Dummy ruffing?Diamonds? I don't think they will get too many there maybe 3. Without the double I would have lead Clubs.Now I'm confused.Do I lead spades or trumps to cut down on ruffs?If I lead a trump and am wrong I may cost us a trump trick (the Q).Since its a pick up pard, I'll lead a trump, I may be wrong, but I may be right. ------------------------------ The idea of a delayed takeout double didn't occur to me.Isn't it a bit dangerous to force pard to the 3 or 4 level when the opponents have the majority of HCP and you can't tell for sure what pard has? In this case 4 Clubs maybe ok, opposite a heart void.This fits nicely, with perhaps 3 losers, maybe 4.Kxxx-QxxxxAxxx But can pard really have this?What did the Stayman bid mean, only Hearts, or Hearts and Spades?For pard to be void in hearts and declarer to have 4 and you have 3 means Dummy has 6 hearts. Is that likely?If he has 5-5 or better he can transfer to one and then bid the other.Is Dummy 5-4? That leaves 4 cards for the minors. I can't see pard having a heart void, he likely has 1 heart. Also, Dummy is inviting game, shouldn't he have more than 8 HCP for that? Given a 5-4-(2-2)/(3-1) distribution? Or maybe he has 5-4-4-0? Maybe the 3 heart rais eis preemptive. I chalk this one up to the great unknowns of pick up pards. Can this be a 2 suited takeout?I guess pard can't have enough for a penalty double. Bid 4 clubs and expect it to be close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 I don't usually believe in looking at my hand before deciding what what partner's bid means (because that implies you believe the opponents...) but this time I'm going to. There are two possible sane meanings for the double.i) Penaltiesii) Very distributional take-out I'm going with (ii). This is also consistent with my general agreement that "double of a suit at the first opportunity to double that suit is take-out". It's also consistent with a pass over 2C, whether he thought that would be clubs or strong balanced, because he doesn't have either. My heart holding is odd, because it's not consistent with either meaning. I reckon the 3H bidder has a fairly weak hand with long hearts, say, 4621 or 4513 or even 3541 and has bid 3H semi-pre-emptively, happy anyway if partner raises. Maybe opener also has 5 hearts, and he's not bid 4H because he knows we don't know what the double means... As he's come into alive auction, he must have a lot of playing strength. Being a junior makes it easier, because he'll need less playing strength to act! How about Kxxx-QxxxxAxxx Anyway, I bid 4C. Not enough for 5C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 I'll bid 5C. The example hand Frances gave seems very light to just be coming into a game invite auction at the 3 level. Maybe RHO is a junior too and was joking around. Or maybe LHO has a ton of distribution and no high cards for his invite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 If you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be correct. Sherlock Holmes. Partner cannot have clubs - he would have doubled 2C.Partner cannot have good, long hearts/spades. He would have bid them.Partner cannot have good, long diamonds. He would have bid them.Partner cannot hold minors. He would have bid 2N. What is left? A hand that could not be shown over 2C yet is strong enough to come into an invitational auction at the 3-level? The only thing that makes sense is a t.o. double for hearts with a hand nearly as good as opener's but this seems inconsistent with my holding and the bidding unless it is 3rd seat who is messing around. The other thing left then is a Michael's hand - partner had hoped to show both suits in this auction or perhaps not to bid at all, and when the opponents found their fit its seemed safer to enter the fray. I would guess partner to hold something like: KQJxx, x, AJ10xxx, x Winston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted January 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 I added the poll to collect some answers. The answers certainly are interesting in regards to partner's hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Given the circumstances (knowledge about partner) I bid 4C. If I thought that my partner had a sound mind then I would bid 5C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Lol, cheers Han ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 I agree with Winston. I guess partner has passed initially waiting to see how strong RHO is. Now that he knows he doesn't have a rock crusher, he's willing to risk showing his two-suited hand. He doesn't have clubs because he didn't double so he must have spades and diamonds. So, I'll bid 4D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Lol, cheers Han ;) Were you the doubler Mike?? In that case I bid 4C and double myself. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 pard is supposed to X 2C with a 3 suiter short hearts and bad clubs (and likely a 4 card suit)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 "The other thing left then is a Michael's hand - partner had hoped to show both suits in this auction or perhaps not to bid at all, and when the opponents found their fit its seemed safer to enter the fray. I would guess partner to hold something like: KQJxx, x, AJ10xxx, x Winston" Ugg why pass and come in so late in the auction with that. Why make bidding so difficult rather than just simply bidding your hand. Strongly prefer 2D over 2clubs and will bid spades next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 "The other thing left then is a Michael's hand - partner had hoped to show both suits in this auction or perhaps not to bid at all, and when the opponents found their fit its seemed safer to enter the fray. I would guess partner to hold something like: KQJxx, x, AJ10xxx, x Winston" Ugg why pass and come in so late in the auction with that. Why make bidding so difficult rather than just simply bidding your hand. Strongly prefer 2D over 2clubs and will bid spades next.I didn't say partner bid well...only what he could not hold. :P Now, if it were possible for responder to be kidding around on xx, xxxxxx, xx, xxx then that increases the likelihood of partner holding AKxx, x, AKxx, Jxxx or the like. Also, it might be helpful to know the agreements, as Justin pointed out - is double clubs or takeout 3-suiter? And lastly, I didn't say it - it was Sir Arthur Doyle who said it. ;) Winston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalvan14 Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 If pard had a good 5-5, or better, it would make no sense to pass first, and then come back with a double over a game invitation. A good 3-suiter (singleton or chicane in hearts) makes much more sense. 5♣ for me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 If pard had a good 5-5, or better, it would make no sense to pass first, and then come back with a double over a game invitation. A good 3-suiter (singleton or chicane in hearts) makes much more sense. 5♣ for me too. agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebound Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 FWIW I am also of the opinion partner shows a spade-diamond 2-suiter with this double for the same reasons Winston has given but I am a bit more open to partner having less strength although I can understand this may be a minority view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Why pard passed 1st round I don't know, but some people have different ways to bid. In this case I'd take it pard wants me to take-out, so I'll bid 4♣ here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted January 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 [hv=d=e&v=n&n=sak964h6dajt82ca7&w=sqj5hak43dq74ct94&e=s832hjt975d53c632&s=st7hq82dk96ckqj85]399|300|Scoring: IMP(1NT!) - P - (2♣) - P!(2♥) - P - (3♥) - X(P) - P! - (P)[/hv] As is typical with online junior bridge (I think things are much more sane f2f), we had an interesting auction. I was the joker East. (If that was given in the problem, I'm sure it would have changed the choice for many of you.) I was trying to test out Rosenberg's theory of opening 1NT and then carrying through on the psyche. That is to say, not passing a forcing bid. I can understand why North bid the way he did. It's not easy to show his big hand. I thought South's pass was almost as crazy as my 1NT opening. They ended up gaining 1.5 imps though as 500 was better than their game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 shocking it was a psyche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Of course, I could not muppet the defence, then we get 800 instead... If you subscribe to the theory that pard has a S/D 2 suiter, pass isn't crazy IMO - your black suit holdings scream defence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted January 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 If you subscribe to the theory that pard has a S/D 2 suiter, pass isn't crazy IMO - your black suit holdings scream defence. I disagree. I do not think pass is an option UNLESS you think one of your opps have psyched. They have a somewhere between 22 and 25 points. The weaker options having responder with more shape and the stronger with opener having bad shape. You know trumps are splitting. If you get a spade ruff, it could very well be with a natural trump trick. You would need partner to hold both black aces t begin to think about defending and there really aren't enough points in the pack. I think that pass is only a viable option IF you think one of your opps has psyched. Hence why I posted the question. I don't think many thought it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 It is obvious that I am an English junior player at heart - with a name like Winston what else could I be? And we English always understood Holmes so well and his little 7% solution problem...... Untangling the meaning of this bid should go a long way in fortifying the well-earned "seriously weird" handle. B) Winston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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