Bid these hands

[MickyB]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sqj87hqdakq64caj8&s=sa6hakj92dj9ckt75]133|200|Scoring: IMP

Starting

1♦:1♥

1♠:2♣

 

1♠ shows an unbalanced hand, 2♣ is 4th suit GF. How should the auction continue?[/hv]

[whereagles]

Dunno.. maybe something like

 

1♦ 1♥

1♠ 2♣

2NT 4NT

5NT 6/7NT?

 

2NT = extras, 15-20. With 11-14 opener would have used fast arrival and bid 3NT.

4NT = quantitative

5NT = in the 18-20 zone, inviting to 7.

6/7NT = depends how lucky you feel.

 

Would be, perhaps, easier if opener had bid 2♠ over 1♥.

[mike777]

edit.

[awm]

This is sort of an interesting thread, because I think there is a legitimate problem with bidding after fourth suit forcing when both partners have about a king extra. This is perhaps an extension of a general problem in standard bidding with wide ranging openings. When opener and responder both have 16 or so points, it's hard for either to make the first move past 3NT (since partner could have twelve or a bad thirteen and even 4NT could be in jeopardy).

 

On the other hand, this pair of hands seems fairly easy to bid, because opener has nineteen and pretty much knows you're in the slam zone when partner forces to game. I'd suggest a simple auction like:

 

1♦ - 1♥

1♠ - 2♣ (1)

3♣ (2) - 3NT (3)

6NT (4) - 7NT (5)

 

(1) Fourth suit forcing to game

(2) Patterning out

(3) No need to push on this apparent misfit opposite a possible 12-count

(4) Nineteen plus thirteen plus a good five card suit equals slam

(5) With a king extra it's worth a grand slam bid

 

I'd also consider a 2♠ rebid as opener after 1♥, although it's perhaps borderline with the stiff queen in the heart suit. This gives a simple auction of:

 

1♦ - 1♥

2♠ (1) - 2NT (2)

3♣ (3) - 7NT (4)

 

(1) Natural and game forcing

(2) Tell me more

(3) Patterning out

(4) 16 opposite around 20 seems like enough to me

[Al_U_Card]

I know I'll get crap about using up valuable bidding space (you know who you are....lol) but since 2NT says I have a club stopper with a minimum and 3C says I have 4 Club cards any strength, I like 3NT to show the C and hand values (at least a K more than minimum). South could continue with 5NT as a slam invite (15-16 pass, 17-18 bid 6) I think that 4NT should be RKCB for the last natural suit bid (ie S) which , if used, would get you to the NT slam as well.

[Al_U_Card]

Finding out about the H Q is pretty delicate and the only way to bid the grand. (I still like to be able to count 13 tricks before I bid a Grand and even if I know about the H Q, does it guarantee 5 H tricks?)

[mikeh]

Tough hand. I think all auctions that reach 7N after this start are (unless playing specialized methods) guessing to some degree. North knows that his hand is great, but the value of the ♥Q depends on who holds the J: the J is worth 2 tricks. As against that, a sensible auction will allow S to evaluate that ♦J.

 

For me, North, with a great hand, should go slow over the 4th suit. I reject 3♣, since this is what I would bid with 4=1=4=4 or 4=0=5=4, and there is no need to distort my hand just yet.

 

My suspicion is that the auction would proceed:

 

1♦  1♥

1♠  2♣

2♦  2N

6N  ??

 

The undisclosed ♦J might just be enough to make S bid the grand: he can picture something like KQxx x AKQxx Axx as a minimum holding: N had 4N available with anything less.

 

However, North might hold KQJx x AKxxx AQx,

 

but 7 is not hopeless (it is bad) on that layout.

 

Note that this auction allows S to upgrade the ♦J: a 3♣ call over 2N, OTOH, denies S that ability.

[HeartA]

This is sort of an interesting thread, because I think there is a legitimate problem with bidding after fourth suit forcing when both partners have about a king extra. This is perhaps an extension of a general problem in standard bidding with wide ranging openings. When opener and responder both have 16 or so points, it's hard for either to make the first move past 3NT (since partner could have twelve or a bad thirteen and even 4NT could be in jeopardy).

 

On the other hand, this pair of hands seems fairly easy to bid, because opener has nineteen and pretty much knows you're in the slam zone when partner forces to game. I'd suggest a simple auction like:

 

1♦ - 1♥

1♠ - 2♣ (1)

3♣ (2) - 3NT (3)

6NT (4) - 7NT (5)

 

(1) Fourth suit forcing to game

(2) Patterning out

(3) No need to push on this apparent misfit opposite a possible 12-count

(4) Nineteen plus thirteen plus a good five card suit equals slam

(5) With a king extra it's worth a grand slam bid

 

I'd also consider a 2♠ rebid as opener after 1♥, although it's perhaps borderline with the stiff queen in the heart suit. This gives a simple auction of:

 

1♦ - 1♥

2♠ (1) - 2NT (2)

3♣ (3) - 7NT (4)

 

(1) Natural and game forcing

(2) Tell me more

(3) Patterning out

(4) 16 opposite around 20 seems like enough to me

I don't agree with 3C bid, which would tell 4-0-5-4 hand, or at least deny HQ (honor). 2NT, if shows extra per pd agreement, is better than 3C. whereagles' sequence is a good one.

[hrothgar]

Anyone else tempted to bid 2♠ over 1♥?

[pclayton]

Anyone else tempted to bid 2♠ over 1♥?

Not really. If pard passes 1♠ we've arrived.

[mghmaine]

Yes, I am not only tempted to bid 2S over 1H, I am doing that. In standard, partner is under no obligation to bid 2S with 5-7 and 4 Ss, so a game may be missed.

 

It is true we may get too high if pd has a poor hand and 3Ss. Depending on shape, we will have the methods to stop short of game, but only in 3Ds or 3Hs depending on shape.

 

In this hand, after 1D-1H, 2S-3C, 3NT- I may bid 4D to set a suit and get more information. Partner will bid likely 5C and I 5H. When partner denies Ss I may picture his hand for the 2S jump.

[HeartA]

Yes, I am not only tempted to bid 2S over 1H, I am doing that.  In standard, partner is under no obligation to bid 2S with 5-7 and 4 Ss, so a game may be missed.

I am not against 2S (reverse and forcing). But I do NOT agree with "partner is under no obligation to bid 2S with 5-7 and 4 Ss". As long as partner responded my opening, he DOES have obligation to raise to 2S with 4 support. To lease 1S stand can ONLY result in: opps get in and find their fit, or/and missing a cold game when opener is on the borderline of reverse.

[Kalvan14]

Either we are back to an old thread (is 1m-1♥-1♠ forcing?) or there are special partnership agreements. I would not accept that this auction can come out of SAYC (or 2/1, too): opener has a nice 5-4-3-1, with 17 HCP. If you do prefer to downgrade the singleton heart, we are still around 19 total point.

 

There are both shape and strength. Is this not worth a reverse?

[foo]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sqj87hqdakq64caj8&s=sa6hakj92dj9ckt75]133|200|Scoring: IMP

Starting

1♦:1♥

1♠:2♣

 

1♠ shows an unbalanced hand, 2♣ is 4th suit GF. How should the auction continue?[/hv]

Why is this a 4SF thread at all?

 

QJ87.Q.AKQ64.AJ8

 

Ummm, why didn't Opener show his magnificent 5 loser hand that upgrades to a very likely 4 loser hand where all 19 HCP are working in the first place?

 

1D-1H;2S-?? ...and Opener has told his story.

 

Even without the 1H response, this hand has something like 6.5 expected tricks in hand before the auction starts and ~8.5 expected tricks opposite any response. In addition, a 1H response upgrades the HQ from a likely useless card to a likely useful card.

 

Seems like Responder holding

A6.AKJ92.J9.KT75

 

Has a much easier time driving the partnership to slam after 1D-1H;2S-??

...and if Responder drives the partnership to slam, Opener should know enough to consider the HQ a very important undisclosed extra value and visualize 13 tricks.

 

 

Maybe I'm a simpleton.

[mike777]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sqj87hqdakq64caj8&s=sa6hakj92dj9ckt75]133|200|Scoring: IMP

Starting

1♦:1♥

1♠:2♣

 

1♠ shows an unbalanced hand, 2♣ is 4th suit GF. How should the auction continue?[/hv]

Why is this a 4SF thread at all?

 

QJ87.Q.AKQ64.AJ8

 

Ummm, why didn't Opener show his magnificent 5 loser hand that upgrades to a very likely 4 loser hand where all 19 HCP are working in the first place?

 

1D-1H;2S-?? ...and Opener has told his story.

 

Even without the 1H response, this hand has something like 6.5 expected tricks in hand before the auction starts and ~8.5 expected tricks opposite any response. In addition, a 1H response upgrades the HQ from a likely useless card to a likely useful card.

 

Seems like Responder holding

A6.AKJ92.J9.KT75

 

Has a much easier time driving the partnership to slam after 1D-1H;2S-??

...and if Responder drives the partnership to slam, Opener should know enough to consider the HQ a very important undisclosed extra value and visualize 13 tricks.

 

 

Maybe I'm a simpleton.

The reason this is a problem is because many of us respond light with short D and 5 hearts. Partner knows this and will not always rebid 2s with 19hcp and 5 loser hands.

 

xxx

Kxxxx

x

xxxx

 

In fact responder can have less.

[Al_U_Card]

Despite the stated bidding, the J/S to S certainly encourages North to start the Grand exploration.

[tysen2k]

I also bid 2♠ over 1♥. But given on this hand that I didn't...

 

I'll start with a 2NT response. I think this should show 12-14 or 18+. The jump to 3NT should show 15-17. So I continue

 

2NT - 3NT

4NT - 6NT

Pass

 

The jump shift might make it easier to get to the grand.

 

Tysen

[mikeh]

I would need a better ♠ suit to jump shift: make it KQxx x AKQxx AJx and I have a jump shift: jump shifts should emphasize suit quality as well as overall playing strength, imo

[han]

I don't like the jump shift either.

 

1D-1H

1S-2C

2NT-3NT

4NT-6NT is possible, I don't quite see how to get to 7.

[Fluffy]

I'd also consider a 2♠ rebid as opener after 1♥, although it's perhaps borderline with the stiff queen in the heart suit. This gives a simple auction of:

 

1♦ - 1♥

2♠ (1) - 2NT (2)

3♣ (3) - 7NT (4)

 

(1) Natural and game forcing

(2) Tell me more

(3) Patterning out

(4) 16 opposite around 20 seems like enough to me

More or less like I would do, but before bidding 7 I would check that our main source of tricks (♦) has all the top honnors.

[Winstonm]

I have a different view of this auction - so what else is new :P - in that I don't like the concept of a 3C bid being limited to 4 card support of an artificial bid. I believe that 4th suit (when you have to use this horrible bid) should be a request for clarification showing a hand that has no clear-cut rebid. If you look at it from this point of view, then a 2D rebid shows extra length, 2H shows a doubleton, 3H shows 3-card support, 2N shows the good club stop with 4252, and 3C is left to describe some time of fragment or better.

 

So, as much respect as I have for MikeH, I still feel the better auction here would be:

 

1D-1H

1S-2C

3C-3H* *Natural looking for the best spot

4D*-4N** *Natural and a slam try. **KCB

5C-5N

7N

 

To show genuine club support, over 3H opener would bid 4C rather than 4D. This method also allows responder when 5/5 to find the club fit immediately and hence can bid a 4th suit bid with this pattern. The disadvantage is to unconver a 4/4 fit takes the 4-level, which is usually not a big problem as 3N is usually an optional contract even with a 4/4 minor fit unless strong enough to try for slam.

 

By freeing the 3C bid to help describe overall shape and not just 4-card support, you untangle the auction and can move slower while showing the entire hand.

 

Winston