Responding to negative double

[plaur]

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=sa98732hjdak4ca95]133|100|Scoring: XIMP

pass - 1♠ - 3♥ - X

pass - ?[/hv]

 

What do you bid and why, with SAYC agreed (assuming x is negative)?

 

What would you bid and why, playing ACOL, when 1♠ might be a four card suit?

 

lin : http://online.bridgebase.com/myhands/fetch...php?id=36460320

My partner won a very nicely played 5♣ :-)

 

Peter Laursen

[badderzboy]

Over the takeout double I would bid 4♥ telling partner to pick which game he would prefer

 

Steve

[mike777]

3s for now.

 

Partner knows I got at least a good 13-14 hcp at worst.

[mikeh]

This is a very tough question, in any 'natural-based' method, whether it be 2/1, SAYC or Acol.

 

Your choices seem to be:

 

3♠

4♠

4♣

4♦

4♥

5♣

5♦

 

3♠ is out, as simply not enough. You definitely have to be in game here, so you cannot make a bid that will often be passed.

 

4♠ at least reaches game. The lack of a ♥ raise is not as worrying as it would be if we were at unfavourable: East may hold several ♥ but with an aceless, flat hand, he won't be in a hurry to risk 800 or more. So there is a good chance that partner has the 2♠ that I'd like him to hold in order to make ♠ a safe contract.

 

Clearly, 4♠ has even more going for it at Acol, since you have not one but two more ♠ than partner was entitled to count.

 

4minor: these bids are a little more encouraging than 3♠, in that you may hit a 1=2=5=5 or so, in which the stiff ♠ is a potential asset, rather than a clear negative as it would be over 3♠. However, the bid does not itself send the message that you have strength: you might even be 5=2=3=3 with horrible ♠ and a minimum. So these bids are less attractive than 4♠, the leader so far.

 

4♥: this gets the job done in terms of getting us to game. It also preserves the chances of reaching ♠: my view is that partner should clearly bid 4♠ with Hx in that suit unless he has a big hand. Our possession of aces suggests that he will not push towards slam unless we have a good play for such a contract.

 

The main downside of 4♥ is that he may not bid 4♠ with xx: indeed, I would like to hear from acolites as to whether 4♠ is even permitted on this auction with xx (Frances?). There is a valid and appropo saying here: 'game before slam', so partner should not take your 4♥ as a slam move, but as an effort to find the best game.

 

Another, lesser problem with the cue-bid is that you are, in my view, minimum for the call. However, you are allowed to be minimum :lol:

 

5minor: too arbitrary. Partner may well be 2=2=4=5 or 2=2=5=4 or so, and now you are guessing as to the correct suit: partner will not 'correct' on these auctions.

 

One I left out: 4N

 

What is 4N? If I hold a big balanced hand with ♥ well stopped, I might be taking the number on offer at this vulnerability. If I held a solid, running suit, with a ♥ stop?? Maybe AKQJxxx Kxx Ax Q. Could it be for the minors? If so, maybe it is a good choice.

 

Inviting a NT slam so as not to get a ♥ ruffed?

 

Anyway, if the person thinking of making a bid does not know what it should mean, then he should not make the bid :(

 

Believe it or not, I would actually go through this sort of 'differential diagnosis' exercise at the table: it takes far longer to type/read this than it does to think it.

Perhaps not surprisingly I have been accused of being a 'thoughtful' player: a.k.a. slow.

 

So I go with 4♥, with a strong second choice of 4♠, and (because I do not know Acol very well) I'd probably reverse the order of those calls if I was filling in in an Acol partnership.

[Kalvan14]

Very well said, Mikeh. I fully agree with your choices.

I do trust my pard to choose 4♠ with xx xxx xxxx xxxx.

 

Slam is pretty hard to bid, even if there were the right cards in front of me (x xx KQJxx QJxxx). What would you rebid with this hand? 4NT (good holding in the minors, 5-5)? The problem is that the same bid might come from a 5-5 minor with 2 spades and singleton heart :lol:, which might look even more attractive to pard.

[temp3600]

4H in Sayc, no second choice.

 

I'm not familiar with Acol. If I bid 4H, responder has a problem with a 2=3=4=4 hand. 4H if I'm sure partner will bid 4S with that shape. 4S if not.

[Guest Jlall]

4H, cannot get myself to bid 4S on this suit and think about partner with a stiff spade, us cold for 7 of a minor, and be in 4S down.

[P_Marlowe]

4S.

 

I have played game on non existing trumps

suits before, ... sometimes it makes,

sometimes not.

 

I would bid 4S even if 1S already promised

a 5 carder.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Mike, you left one option out: Pass.

We will beat 3H most likely, and since they

are red and we are green, it may be the

best way to get rich ... or broke.

[adhoc3]

Pass is my bid, I wonder why it is not an option in Mikeh's list.

 

Quite different form the hand that i posted a few days ago (Axx KQJTx Kx xxx, 1H-3S-x), we have sure +200 (the negative double promises 1 trick) and could make 1100 -- if there's a slam.

 

Regards,

 

Jack

 

PS: I assume pard made a decent double, i.e., 9+ hcps and not monster 2 suiter: x x Qxxxx KQxxxx.

[HeartA]

4H for me, too.

[badderzboy]

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=sa98732hjdak4ca95]133|100|Scoring: XIMP

pass - 1♠ - 3♥ - X

pass - ?[/hv]

 

What do you bid and why, with SAYC agreed (assuming x is negative)?

 

What would you bid and why, playing ACOL, when 1♠ might be a four card suit?

 

lin : http://online.bridgebase.com/myhands/fetch...php?id=36460320

My partner won a very nicely played 5♣ :-)

 

Peter Laursen

As an Acol player

 

Playing Acol 1♠ might be a 4 card suit but it is extremely unlikely to be as

if u have 4 ♠ then you have 15+pts balanced and a 4333 shaped hand so in this auction the 3♥ bidder has shown 6/7+ ♥ then partner is unlikely to have that shape and therefore likely to have at least 5.

 

 

Q1 Does the acol partnership bid 4 card suits up the line ? ie with 42(34) do they bid the minor first? If u do it makes this hand soooo much easier

 

Q2 How many ♥s does the negative doubler hold?

On the hand in question 3 so partner looks short...

 

Now when an Acol player bids 4♥ he's leaving 4♠ open so

(i) Hasn't picked a minor suit so if he is unlikely have 42(34) shape

(ii) Didn't bid 3NT so likely weak/short in Hearts.

(iii) You didn't bid 3NT so he knows you don;t have a ♥ stop

(iii) Didn't bid 3♠ so not weak

(iv) Didn't bid 4♠ so wants a little help in ♠s OR for u to pick a minor - he knows you don;t have 3 as you would have bid 4♠ over 3♥ with 3 card support and a decent hand (see Partner has 5 spades)..

(iv) if 5134 he would show preference so there is a good chance he has 6♠s and if he has 5 will bid a minor over 4♠ ie it was a Slam try...

 

So with 2 Spades I bid 4♠ - with 1♠ my best minor.

 

PS 4♠x doubled make too <_<

 

Steve

[Finch]

I think 4H is pretty clear.

 

Although I come from Acol-land, I don't play 4CM in anything except speedball events, so I'm not sure what partner would do over 4H on a 2344 with two low spades. I think he should bid 4S, as we can't really have a 4-card spade suit for the 4H bid (if we do, we are balanced and would have bid some number of NT or passed).

 

In a real 4CM style it's a much harder problem if we are 5143 and very strong, as when partner doubles he might have 3-card support, whereas in a 5CM system he would usually have raised with 3-card support.

[joker_gib]

PS: Mike, you left one option out: Pass.

We will beat 3H most likely, and since they

are red and we are green, it may be the

best way to get rich ... or broke.

4♥ and 4♠ close second choice.

 

I don't pass t/o double without trumps.

 

Alain

[pclayton]

When I 1st looked at the problem, I thought "4♠", but the thread convinces me that 4♥ is a better option.

 

With a 5=0=4=4, I'd try 4N.

 

This hand plays really nicely even in a 5-3 by reversing the dummy / setting up the spades, yada yada.

[Chamaco]

3S.

Give a chance to p to bid 3NT.

[plaur]

Q1 Does the acol partnership bid 4 card suits up the line ? ie with 42(34) do they bid the minor first? If u do it makes this hand soooo much easier

Live I play acol 4 card suits up-the-line in principle with 15-17 NT. "In principle" means that opener may ignore a weaker 4 card minor in favor of a good 4 card major:

AK10x

Kx

Kxxx

Jxx

I would open 1♠ and rebid 2NT over 2♣ or 2♥. If the hand was stronger I would open the minor. 1♠ does not promise 5 so you get sequences like this:

1♠ - 2♣

2NT - 3♠ * GF with 3 card support

[the hog]

3S.

Give a chance to p to bid 3NT.

No Mauro. If 3NT was the right spot partner would have bid it on the previous round. 4H is what I would bid here. The hand is control rch, the S far too weak for 4S. 3S suggests better S and a weaker hand.

[mike777]

I do not see why 3s suggests a weaker hand, all I have is one QT over a minimum opening, poor spade spots and no fit yet.

 

I assume I do not open on junk.

[mikeh]

I do not see why 3s suggests a weaker hand, all I have is one QT over a minimum opening, poor spade spots and no fit yet.

 

I assume I do not open on junk.

What kind of hand are you expecting partner to hold????? He forced you to bid, holding no primary ♠ support.

 

One thing you know, is that you HAVE a fit: what you do not yet know is just how good the fit is and which game or slam you should reach. If partner lacks 2♠ (which would in itself give you an 8 card major suit fit), he will positively have a 5 card minor: the chances of his being 1=4=4=4 on this auction are between slim and none. Once again, you HAVE a fit, but you do not know where.

 

And as for valuation: a rebid of 3♠ would be made on, for example: AQJxx Jxx Kxx Qx. Your actual hand is SEVERAL tricks stronger than that.

 

Bidding is a dialogue: an exchange of information. The opps have told you that your ♥ shortage is an asset (compare your valuation here to how you would value this hand had partner opened with a weak preempt in ♥). Your partner has promised a fit of some sort and (more importantly) he has shown a reasonably strong hand (by no means has he promised an opening bid, but he does not have a mis-fitting 6 count either). You hold a hand with 7 (count them: 7) controls!!!! This is more controls than you will usually hold for a strong notrump: it is more than you often hold for an opening bid of 2N. Controls count!

 

You have a LTC of 6: which is a full trick better than the usual minimum oppening bid. In this case, your LTC is actually misleading: in that the negative double strongly suggests that partner can fill in the missing minor honours and can (in a minor) take care of one of your ♠ losers.

 

This hand is a powerhouse if you look beyond your preliminary valuation and listen, really listen, to the auction.

 

I feel passionately about this (even tho my language is, as always, moderate :P )

 

Actually, joking aside, I do think that this is a good hand for discussing how we show continually re-evalute our holdings based on the entire auction.

[mike777]

Thanks for reply, but I assume we would not open your example hand. In fact make it 6322 or 6124 and I still pass or open a weak 2 bid.

 

Also as I said we do not have fit, yet......I guess it would be correct to say we do not have a known fit yet :P. Ya, that would mean passing most balanced 13 hcp hands, perhaps that it too old fashion?

[inquiry]

Thanks for reply, but I assume we would not open your example hand.  In fact make it 6322  or 6124 and I still pass or open a weak 2 bid.

 

Also as I said we do not have  fit, yet......I guess it would be correct to say we do not have a known fit yet :P. Ya, that would mean passing most balanced 13 hcp hands, perhaps that it too old fashion?

Hi Mike,

 

Are you serioiusly suggesting you would pass instead of opening with:

 

♠AQJxx

♥Jxx

♦Kxx

♣Qx

 

Or even

♠AQJxxx

♥x

♦Kxx

♣Qxx

 

I only ask because this seems so unlike you. I had you down for a very light opener when holding five or more spades. And these hands seem ultra solid opening bids.

[Guest Jlall]

Mike went from opening all balanced 11s to passing balanced 13s :P Must be the Roth influence :D

[the hog]

"Thanks for reply, but I assume we would not open your example hand. In fact make it 6322 or 6124 and I still pass or open a weak 2 bid."

 

 

Mike , does this mean you would either pass or open the following with a weak 2 bid?

 

AQJxx Jxx Kxx Qx

 

You have got to be kidding!

[mike777]

Easy pass. :).

 

I hope my partner expects more from me in first or second seat but perhaps this is too old fashion. I fail to see 3 QT on this hand. Not sure why lower level players need to open lighter.

[Chamaco]

Not sure why lower level players need to open lighter.

As I consider myself within the "lower level player" definition, I'll respond why I feel more comfortable opening lighter:

 

the reason is that with that kind of hands (say a minimum of a shapely 10/11 count with nothing wasted) I feel I need to deliver my strength/shape sooner or later in the auction but if I wait the next round the bidding might be already at a dangerous level to stick in.

Especially for a lower level player it takes a great deal of discipline to let the bidding die passing throughout when you do "feel the urge" to show your features.

 

Under such conditions, if I cannot restrain myself, I rather prefer to open those hands right away and then pull the brake later.