Who to blame (9)

[HeartA]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sa105h975dk10963cqj&s=sk9hkqj1082daq7ca7]133|200|Scoring: IMP

East passed as dealer and bidding went:

(P) - 1H - (P) - 1NT

(P) - 4H - ppp[/hv]

 

Who is responsible for the missing slam?

[Al_U_Card]

Since I like a 3D J/S from south, he gets my vote.

[cherdano]

South, 4H doesn't show this hand.

 

Btw, while this would be an easy 2♣ opening playing Chris Ryall's paradox responses, I am not sure this would make finding slam much easier. In standard 2/1, after opener jump rebids 3♦, North can force to slam via 6-KCB (I am imagining 1♥-1N-3♦-4♦-4♥-4N). After 2♣-2♦-2♥-3♥, opener needs a little courage to make a slam try with 4♦, since he has little extras in reserve. I think he should, but I can't claim for sure I would at the table.

[mike777]

4H seems clear cut. Is not 18-20 hcp with self sufficient heart suit standard anymore?

 

 

I bid 4s ace ask now, we have a giant hand for partner. I do not worry about clubs. If not playing kickback then cuebid 4s now.

 

Agree responder should start with constructive 2h and not 1nt...

[pbleighton]

This is kind of tough, neither is totally to blame or entirely off the hook.

 

3D is better than 4H, but not by much. I might have bid 4H at the table.

 

After 4H, North has an ace more than minimum. Show the hand by bidding 4S. Then 5C-5D-6H in the magical kingdom of double dummy bidding.

 

If my teammates did this auction, I would be somewhat disappointed but not too much - on some days I would do it too.

 

Peter

[Fluffy]

Another perfect hand for forcing 2NT rebid B)

[mikeh]

The fault lies in the 4♥ rebid, but whether and where blame attaches depends on the partnership agreements or lack thereof.

 

While the post does not ask for pet methods, I cannot resist a plug for one of mine: use the jumpshift to 3♣, after 1N, as either natural with ♣ or huge with ♥: a hand almost worth 2♣ as an opening bid.

 

The usual response is 3♦ as a relay, but 3♥ is permissible to show a balanced limit raise (the reason for the 1N bid). This start would get the partnership to slam very easily.

 

As with all methods, there is a cost: the loss of a natural 3♦ bid is the clearest, but one rarely ends up in ♦ if S has a rounded two-suiter gf or a ♥ monster. Sometimes a natural 3♦ facilitates reaching 3N. These costs are acceptable (to me) in exchange for the enhanced ability to show monster hands while preserving bidding space.

[awm]

I blame the methods. How easy is this hand after north makes a (natural and non-game forcing) 2♦ response? B)

[mcphee]

Not knowing what they play makes pointing the finger more difficult.

 

As a passed hand I hate the 1NT bid which seems off base to me. Even a simple 2H raise gives the pair a very good chance to reach 6 H. Drury would have also let 6 H be reached.

 

4H was not great and I prefer the 3 card J/S which would surely give the partnership an opportunity to reach 6.

 

If E were to raise H rather than bid 1NT I think sensible biddindg would allow you to reach 6 without much struggle. I make it 60 E 40 W (failure to j/s).

[pbleighton]

"If E were to raise H rather than bid 1NT I think sensible biddindg would allow you to reach 6 without much struggle."

 

I think they were playing 2/1, and planned a jump raise in hearts. A raise to 2H is an underbid.

 

Peter

[Stephen Tu]

4H seems clear cut. Is not 18-20 hcp with self sufficient heart suit standard anymore

 

This hasn't been the standard for many decades. 1h-1nt-4h = "I have a freak with 7+ hearts, that I thought was a little too strong to just open 4h". The 18-20 hand you describe is in standard methods a jump shift into a fragment then rebid 4h.

[mike777]

4H seems clear cut. Is not 18-20 hcp with self sufficient heart suit standard anymore

 

This hasn't been the standard for many decades. 1h-1nt-4h = "I have a freak with 7+ hearts, that I thought was a little too strong to just open 4h". The 18-20 hand you describe is in standard methods a jump shift into a fragment then rebid 4h.

Well someone at this table thought it still was, just as I did B).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I agree with those, who blame the methods,

4H is what you want to play.

If you want to go sientific, you could bid

3D, which is game forcing, usually showing

a 4 card suit, but a 3 card is possible.

 

After the 3D you will find the slam, but maybe,

they will find the killing lead, in the cases when

partner holds 4-7 and 3 card support.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenrexford]

The partnership, for lacking techniques.

 

Apparently, 1NT is forcing. Otherwise, why not simly raise hearts?

 

Assuming this, is not 2H constructive? If so, 1H-P-2H starts an auction allowing some variety of cuebidding, at a low level, to reach slam.

 

If 2H is not constructive, and 1NT forcing, then my personal vote is for the forcing 2NT rebid (GF). Responder rejects the semi-forced relay to 3C by raising heart immediately. Not fast arrival (4H), but 3H to show extra stuff, and voila! Some other technique is OK.

 

If 1NT is standard (non-forcing), then why not 3H (presumably limit), 2D, or at least a simple 2H (QJ tight downgraded)?

[inquiry]

South, 4H doesn't show this hand.

 

Btw, while this would be an easy 2♣ opening playing Chris Ryall's paradox responses, I am not sure this would make finding slam much easier. In standard 2/1, after opener jump rebids 3♦, North can force to slam via 6-KCB (I am imagining 1♥-1N-3♦-4♦-4♥-4N). After 2♣-2♦-2♥-3♥, opener needs a little courage to make a slam try with 4♦, since he has little extras in reserve. I think he should, but I can't claim for sure I would at the table.

I don't like the 1NT response. Direct raise by north seems right to me.

 

As for cherdano's comment, yes this is a great hand for Chris Ryal's paradox response based 2C opener. TI am more optomistic that using Chris;s methods this will get to slam more often than not as after 2H rebid by opener, north will show diamonds, then support hearts.

[Kalvan14]

I play Paradox over a strong 2C, so we would have got to slam that way.

 

Going back to the posted auction, there is something unclear: the only reason for N not to support immediately hearts (either constructive or limit) is if they play 1NT forcing (and this hand would be shown by a delayed JR).

In such a case, S should avoid bidding 4♥ (3♦ describes the hand much better); again, if 4♥ shows a 18-20 with a self-standing heart suit, N should find the courage to bid again (but I believe he understood 4♥ as a weaker hand).

 

1♥-1N-3♦-4♦-4♥-4♠-4N-5♥(2 KC)-6♥ should be a reasonable auction.

[EricK]

These are not my methods at all so I may be talking rubbish, but if North was planning on making a jump raise in ♥ on the second round then surely he worth a move over partners 4♥. After all, he would bid also bid 1NT with hands like ♠QJx ♥x ♦QJxxx ♣Jxxx and his actual hand is at least a couple of tricks better than this.

 

Eric

[cherdano]

These are not my methods at all so I may be talking rubbish, but if North was planning on making a jump raise in ♥ on the second round then surely he worth a move over partners 4♥. After all, he would bid also bid 1NT with hands like ♠QJx ♥x ♦QJxxx ♣Jxxx and his actual hand is at least a couple of tricks better than this.

 

Eric

It really depends on what 4♥ shows. For me it shows a 7+-card suit and just about opening strength in highcards. Could be ♠KJx ♥KQJxxxx ♦x ♣Ax, where 5♥ is too high; admittedly, that would be unlucky, but opener certainly won't have 3 keycards, ♥Q AND another king which you need for slam.

 

Btw, playing 2/1, I might just make a constructive raise to 2♥ with the given hand.

[P_Marlowe]

These are not my methods at all so I may be talking rubbish, but if North was planning on making a jump raise in ♥ on the second round then surely he worth a move over partners 4♥. After all, he would bid also bid 1NT with hands like ♠QJx ♥x ♦QJxxx ♣Jxxx and his actual hand is at least a couple of tricks better than this.

 

Eric

Hi,

 

the hand is better, because the diamond

values fit, if they would not fit, the hand

gets a lot worse, and the 5 level may not

be safe, ... making the contract could be 50%.

 

But responder has no way to know, what is the

case, so if opener bids 4H, responder has to guess,

he did guess wrong, so be it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Gerben42]

Depends on the methods. Let's see:

 

2/1: North for not making a constructive raise to 2♥

SEF / std. American: North for not raising ♥

Acol: South for not opening 2♣

[Finch]

Depends on the methods. Let's see:

 

Acol: South for not opening 2♣

Looks more like an Acol 2H opening to me.

 

But playing some form of Acol without Acol 2s, North would respond 2D and there wouldn't be a problem.

 

The source of the problem here is one of:

- South has no way of making a forcing heart bid over the 1NT response, or

- North has to respond 1NT on this hand rather than 2D natural, 2C Drury or 2H good constructive raise.

[Gerben42]

Sorry wouldn't have thought a balanced 10-count with 3 HCP in ♣QJ doubleton would be enough for a 2/1, even in Acol.

 

Anyway for opening 2♣ I was assuming NS to be sensible enough to not play 2♥ as Acol 2 bid but perhaps Benji or Ryall 2♣.

 

That South has no forcing ♥ bid after 1NT is a common problem to many systems. Enter Gazzilli <_<

 

Not sure what 1NT meant though, it's why I thought Acol: no raise since 4-card majors, and no 2♦ because the hand is too weak.

[Finch]

The hand is easily worth an Acol 2/1, even nowadays when they've got a bit stronger than they used to be. Many modern players say a 2NT rebid over a 2/1 is forcing to game, so you ask yourself if you want to be in game opposite a balanced 15 count. As the answer is yes, it's worth a 2/1. (I'm not saying game will be cold, just than on average you want to be in it.)

 

p.s. you don't have to play Gazilli to solve the problem, there are lots of different methods available, but playing one of them seems a good idea.

[Codo]

I allways had understood 1 ♥1 NT 4 ♥as strong and long and had never passed with the north hand. I cannot understand the sense in playing 1♥ 1 NT 4 ♥as a weaker hand, as I still can bid 3 Heart to invite pd....

[Stephen Tu]

I allways had understood 1 ♥1 NT 4 ♥as strong and long and had never passed with the north hand. I cannot understand the sense in playing 1♥ 1 NT 4 ♥as a weaker hand, as I still can bid 3 Heart to invite pd....

 

With the hands strong in high cards, preserving bidding space is valuable for slam exploration. If you have a weaker freak, 8 hearts, or 7-4, you often do not want to bid 3H because that can be passed (partner will play you for only 6 hearts, perhaps more in high cards, 1-1.5 tricks less in playing strength). You want to bid game because on average it will still make opposite hands partner would pass 3H with. But you need to distinguish between the hands that are bidding game on extra distribution vs. the ones that are bidding game on extra high cards, particularly if you are playing 2/1 where the 1nt response has a higher upper limit and slam is possible opposite the jump shift hands. With the weaker distributional 4H bid, there is almost never slam opposite a 1nt response so the space isn't needed.

 

You are bidding 1h ... 4h on hands that you might have opened 4H with, but thought you were a bit too strong & might miss slam if partner had a 2/1 response. You aren't worried about missing slam opposite a 1nt response, but want to gamble on game, don't want to miss it by bidding only 3h.

 

There are better artificial methods available, but if your only agreement is "standard", you have to jump shift into a fragment (sometimes even a doubleton!) with one suited 18+hcp hands.