Overcalling a Strong Club

[Kalvan14]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=skt64h82dqt2ckq95]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(P)-P-(1C)*-1H**-(P)-?

 

* : Precision, 16/+

**: Transfer to spades (5/+)[/hv]

 

Pard struck gold. What are you rebidding?

[Free]

2♠, wtp?

[Guest Jlall]

1N if I play it as a cuebid (I should). 2S otherwise.

[HeartA]

2S, or 2C if pd understands.

[Elianna]

For curiosity's sake, what does RHO's pass mean? Did you ask? (If it means "nothing", I'd try asking what inferences they get from RHO not finding a bid.)

 

Also, I can't believe that I'm playing some system and haven't discussed how to make a good raise.

 

Also what kind of hand does partner need? Any hand with 5+ ♠'s? A certain number of points? Less than a certain number?

 

anyway, I want to know what I've discussed with partner.

[mike777]

I want to cuebid..but rats rho has passed so 1s for now...will cue bid next bid hopefully. I assume RHO pass shows almost nothing with no long suits.

[Kalvan14]

RHO pass shows less than 5 points, and no suit 6 cards or longer.

 

I wanted to have an idea of the level you want to pre-empt, without any special agreement.

However, you are probably right:

• 1S would deny a good fit or shape
  
• Pass would be 0/1 spade, and at least 4 hearts
  
• 1NT would be deny fit again, and in this particular case would show length in the minors
  
• any suit at 2 level would be fit-showing (generally with 3-card fit, but can be 4 in a bad shape)
  
• any suit at 3-level would be again fit-dhowing with 4 trumps
  
• a raise or jump-raise in spades would be pre-emptive
  

Overcaller may have:

• 5-6 cards single suiter in spades
  
• 5 spades and 4 hearts
  
• 5 spades and 4m (in this case the m would be poor)
  

[000002]

this particular auction has a particular solution in china , and it's popular .

 

1nt to show normal strength raise with 3card♠ upholding,2nt need 4.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

3S, preemptive, 4 card support

 

The explanation, that 1H is a transfer to spade

is not sufficient, the question also is, is 1H

contructive or destructive.

(Edit: You gave the explanation in a later post,

it should have been part of your original post.)

 

As already noted, you should ask, what Pass means.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I am not really a big believer in transfer

overcalls.

[Free]

Transfer overcalls over big ♣ should be more constructive or just lead directing (otherwise bid weak at 2-level). This makes space for the 1♠ bid to be something weaker and more frequent (like 0-3♠ ;) ). 1♠ is a quite safe bid, but it takes away the entire 1-level, so it's more useful to use it a lot more than just a normal 1♠ overcall imo.

 

However I don't like transfer overcalls from 5 card. 4 cards is more than enough, and if you have a constructive hand with 5-4, you can make a help suit trial after 1♠ (showing 3♠) or 2♠ response...

 

This said, I still only bid 2♠, since I have slow values with a strong hand behind my cowboys.

[pclayton]

3♠ looks right. Hope pard didn't forget the transfers!

[Guest Jlall]

This is a 3S bid and so is Kxxx x xxxx xxxx?

[tysen2k]

This is a 3S bid and so is Kxxx x xxxx xxxx?

I think so if partner can be counted on to have 5+♠. If you only bid 2♠ and opener goes to 3♥, you don't want them to have it there. Bid 3♠ right away.

 

Tysen

[cherdano]

Given the system, how about 2♣ followed by a raise to 3♠? I am worried about missing game by jumping to 3♠ (or having partner sacrifice over 4♥ when he shouldn't).

 

Arend

[Guest Jlall]

This is a 3S bid and so is Kxxx x xxxx xxxx?

I think so if partner can be counted on to have 5+♠. If you only bid 2♠ and opener goes to 3♥, you don't want them to have it there. Bid 3♠ right away.

 

Tysen

Don't understand this logic, and maybe never will.

 

Your logic for bidding 3S right away is that you don't want them to have it for 3H? Bidding 2S would not preclude getting to 3S IF they bid 3H, which is not a certainty.

 

We may also buy it for 2S, LHO may well not be able to bid 3H freely as it does show extras, or partner may just have hearts. LHO may bid 3C. This could easily be our hand for partscore or game. This is why I would bid 1N as a cuebid if I had that option, my hand is not a preemptive hand.

 

However I will never understand the logic of "we don't want them to have it at 3H so we must bid 3S now." They haven't bid 3H yet, and bidding 1S/1N/2S/anything does not preclude bidding 3S later.

 

If your argument is trying to preempt them out of FOUR hearts, I understand that much better. However with this hand there isn't really that need.

[Flame]

Justin we live by this logic, you cant take it away just like that, it deserve a serious article on your blog.

Most of us bid competitive autions based on the lott, when we have 9 spades(as long as partner read your article on overcalling over strog 1c) we usually bid to the 3 level, especially when it looks like opponents have thier heart fit.

The second rule we live on is the last guess principle.

The idea is that by bidding 3S we give them the last guess, lets say opener has 6 hearts, now if his partner has anice hearts he want to bid 4H but he is on guess, if we only bid 2S he has an easy 3H bid, now when we bid 3S they are in a perfect position to either bid 4H or pass or double us.

I guess these rules need serious refinment, and will be very happy if you help with this.

[Guest Jlall]

I guess it's the same reason people play bergen eh? :unsure:

[Flame]

I guess it's the same reason people play bergen eh? :D

yep :unsure:

[Guest Jlall]

I guess it's the same reason people play bergen eh? :D

yep :unsure:

at least in bergen you can differentiate between what kind of strength you have. In this case if 3S encompasses preemptive raise, mixed raise and limit raise I'm not sure how partner can feasibly judge what to do.

[Flame]

Not exactly, I do have ways to distiguege strengh, but with most 4 cards raise those ways will take me to the 3 level, for example a cue bid or 2nt freqently show raize with more then weak hand.

[Guest Jlall]

Not exactly, I do have ways to distiguege strengh, but with most 4 cards raise those ways will take me to the 3 level, for example a cue bid or 2nt freqently show raize with more then weak hand.

Over 2N north can bid 3H. Not sure what the gain is here.

[hrothgar]

at least in bergen you can differentiate between what kind of strength you have. In this case if 3S encompasses preemptive raise, mixed raise and limit raise I'm not sure how partner can feasibly judge what to do.

its worth noting that the original 1♠ overcall has limited partner's hand. (Most overcall systems over strong club opening use a two-way pass. Pass shows either a very weak hand lacking sufficient shape to make a call or a good hand)

 

Its MUCH safer to employ wide ranging bids opposite a limited call. Equally significant, most overcall structures aren't designed to permit us to accurately explore game for games. We're here to screw up their auction while (hpefully) landing in a tolerable spot. (Shades of the discussions regarding overcall structures over Strong NT)

 

From my perspective, the key issue on this hand boils down to bidding 2♠ or 3♠. I can see merits to either bid, though I lean towards 2♠ given my defensive values. I don't consider the hand nearly strong enough to consider inviting game...

[pclayton]

This thread brings up some excellent questions.

 

1. Direct action over a strong club generally denies a strong hand. I've never heard a sensible definition of what a 'strong' hand is in this sequence. Is it an opening bid? A 16 count? Lets discuss. I would nominate that its an opening bid on its own, which may include some 10-11 counts obviously.

 

2. As a corollary to #1, hands with longer suits make preemptive calls. Accordingly, we can expect only a 5 card suit (or good 4 bagger) from pard.

 

3. There are some unique situations in competitive bidding where no 'cue' bid is available. Overcalling a strong artificial opening is one, and so is competing over a 1N opening bid. A pair I've played against in Southern California plays a NT bid as a 'cue' bid to create a force. I think this is a sensible approach.

 

4. My personal approach is that a equal vul overcall in a single suiter shows a fair hand. At green it can vary wildly. For 2 suiters, I generally promise 8 cards at green, 9 cards at equal and 10 cards at adverse.

 

With the subject hand, are we worried about missing game if partner denies an opening bid? I think the risk is minimal, if only on a LTC basis. With a little more, I'd make some sort of invite.

[Guest Jlall]

its worth noting that the original 1♠ overcall has limited partner's hand.

Funny, I never saw that in the original post. I guess we are playing your system, but I assumed we were playing the original poster's system and playing by his rules. Would partner pass with some shapely 12 count? This seems doubtful to me.

 

We're here to screw up their auction while (hpefully) landing in a tolerable spot. (Shades of the discussions regarding overcall structures over Strong NT)

 

I would agree the primary reasons to overcall are to find saves, be a nuisance, and lead directional. However we have a good hand with defense and offense. Partner, with the primary reasons to overcall in mind, chose to overcall. It seems likely he does not have a 5332 hand unless his suit is good, and he has some kind of values. He may not have much, but he may have enough for game. My hand is not preemptive, I think the deal could very well belong to us so I will try to bid constructively as opposed to screw up their auction. If I thought game was out of the question or that the opponents probably had a game I would preempt, however I do not think either of those is true.

 

I don't consider the hand nearly strong enough to consider inviting game...

 

We cuebid with hands like this all the time when partner makes a normal (and limited) overcall. Partner can have his AQJxx and out, but we are still very low. If I had to guess "do we have a game" I would guess no, but fortunately I can involve partner in this decision. There is lots of room between 1S and 4S to work it out, and if need be I can always compete to 3S later.

[Guest Jlall]

1. Direct action over a strong club generally denies a strong hand. I've never heard a sensible definition of what a 'strong' hand is in this sequence. Is it an opening bid? A 16 count? Lets discuss. I would nominate that its an opening bid on its own, which may include some 10-11 counts obviously.

Bidding DENIES an opening hand? This seems wrong from a frequency point of view (you will be starting with a pass on most of the hands you want to get in there with instead of bidding with all but the strongest) and from a common sense point of view (to me with nothing I will pass, with something I will bid).