Slow Start

[mike777]

"So, I would not blame the insuccess to the adoption of LTTC, but rather on a misapplication."

 

Well alot of these conventions/cuebids/pass and bids are misapplied even at the world class levels.

 

Reminds of me FLipFlop. I keep forgetting we play this thing. I put down dummy the other night and my mild mannered partner growls, about time you remember what we play partner B).

[foo]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sqtha853dq72c9632&s=sk9742hkqjt7dak3c]133|200|Scoring: IMP

S W N E

1♠ p 1NT p

2♥ p ?????[/hv]

 

After this slow start, can you catch up and bid the slam? System is 2/1 and 1N is forcing.

IMHO 2H is more of an underbid than 3H is an overbid so I would've rebid 3H as Opener. ...and shrugged philosophically if it did not work out. For all we try, bidding is not and never will be an exact science.

 

Our saving grace on this board is that QT.A853.Q72.9632 is an invitational hand that gets much better after 1S-1N;2H-??

 

3H by responder should be automatic.

 

Now Opener has to do something noteworthy to take their hand from below the bottom of the box they have shown to the middle of the actual box their hand is now in. (This BTW, is why I think Jeff Reubens would rebid 3H as Opener in the first place)

 

Exclusion RKC is perfect.

 

5C intending to drive to 6H if responder tries to sign off in 5H is not unreasonable given that Responder has shown invitational values and we have 9+H between us.

 

Even (*shudder*) 4N 1430 is worth the risk since the odds of C waste are fairly low and the odds of PD having a S card for us are reasonable given the auction.

[Kalvan14]

Opener's 1st rebid is much trickier than it appears.

3♥ is GF, but does not guarantees 5 cards: on the (more than likely) 3NT by pard (on an average/+ hand, mind: say Qx xx Qxx KJTxx), I'd expect that anyone will rebid 4♥. Now both 4♥ and 4♠ are not a very nice contract.

 

1♠-1N-2♥ can be up to 17-18 HCP; there is no reason that pard with Axxx in hearts and Hx in spades will refrain from raising your 2nd suit.

 

I am mostly convinced that slam is a bit too fancy (2 perfect hands matching), but it can be reached (if ever) with an auction like 1♠-1N-2♥-3♥-4♦[fragment], which makes clear to advancer that all of his cards are working.

If there is a JS at 2nd round, the bidding will certainly end up in 4♥.

 

As an aside, I do play both light openings and light 1st bids by advancer: this is ok, IMHO, provided that your assessment of losers and shape is reasonable. IMHO again, this means that:

• if opener wants to invoke a GF, he must have his bid (and 1S-1N-3H is a GF 100%)
  
• advancer cannot tailor all his bids on the assumption that opener has a shapely 10 count. The invitational bids are targetted for mid range
  
• if anyone is uncomfortable with this philosophy of life, I would submit that there is something which is wrong: the system (a strong club system is quite helpful in limiting opening bids) or the light opening bids or the light bid by advancer
  

[benlessard]

You want a weird relay system sequence here it is

 

 

 

 

1♥---1♠ relay??

 

my hand is number 9 but there is 7 bal hands so my hand is 16

 

 

2nt ----GF gamma(mod+2)-----3♣??

 

 

 

 

3nt ------(desc G14)

 

 

showing exact

5530 with better ♥ otherwise i would have opened 1♠

 

now 4♣ keyc ♥

 

5♦ 2+q+k♠+K♦ no Q♠

 

now partner know i have

 

kxxxx

kqxxx

akx

 

and a jump shift type of hand 18-22

 

so he knows iv got extra and the extra cant be jt♠ because i would have opened 1♠

 

 

so eithey i have jt of ♥ or 3j

 

anyway hes got an easy 6♥ bid

 

if i opened 1♠

 

1♠-----1nt ?

 

2♦ ♥12-14 or 18-22 -2♥ Pref

 

now my hand is nuber 9 caus there is no balanced hand here...

 

3♠ (DESC F9) showing 5530 4h key♥ 3nt is

 

5♠ 2+Q+K♠+K♦ no ♠Q

 

easy 6♥

 

 

Ill post the GAMMA relay tommorow or wednesday so youll see how it works.

[Free]

With relay systems this hand is piece of cake... The question is how it's done with 2/1 :wub:

[Echognome]

You want a weird relay system sequence  here it is

<snip>

Yes, a weird relay system indeed. I'm trying to understand (1) why a responder without a GF hand would relay and (2) why the weak hand is captain.

 

I play a variety of systems and this is one of those hands that happens to fit the relay system I play well. However, there are plenty of other hands which create difficulties for the relay bidders, especially when there is interference. It also happens to be the case that on this hand, responder's shape is resolved at the lowest possible level for shape resolution and our bidding would be:

 

1♣(1) - 1NT(2)

2♣® - 2NT(3)

3♣® - 3♦(4)

3♥® - 3NT(5)

4♣® - 4♠(6)

6♥ - Pass

 

® relay

(1) 16+ any shape

(2) Bal positive, 2+ controls

(3) 2=4=3=4 exactly

(4) Exactly 2 controls

(5) One of A,K,Q in ♥s; either A,K,Q in ♣s or no top honours in ♣s*

(6) One of A,K,Q in ♦s and ♠s; no second honour in ♥s

 

At this point, opener knows responder is ♠Qx ♥Axxx ♦Qxx ♣xxxx. He could relay for Js, but 6♥ is going to be where he's going to end up.

 

*Opener can actually deduce responder's hand after the 3NT bid. Responder has shown a positive response, exactly 2 controls, the ♥A and nothing in clubs. So perhaps a direct 6♥ bid after 3NT is appropriate.

 

Playing Riton or Gazzilli would certainly help the South hand's rebid. For the given problem, I would expect South to make a slam try after a courtesy raise in hearts, but cannot imagine North would accept.

[Chamaco]

[*]if anyone is uncomfortable with this philosophy of life, I would submit that there is something which is wrong: the system (a strong club system is quite helpful in limiting opening bids) or the light opening bids or the light bid by advancer

One might as well consider

♠ Q10

♥ A853

♦ Q72

♣ 9632

 

too light for an invitation, opposite a minimum 2H rebid: flat hand, only 6 hcp that are useful for sure.

 

Indeed, I know I sound like a broken record, but the "std" system shows his flaw, as there is no "in between" bid for opener to show a hand stronger than 2H but weaker than a 3H game force.

 

I agree that either a strong club or a Roth-Stone requirement for 1 level opening or a Gazzilli-like scheme would work better.

[000002]

displace ♥ 10 in ♠ suit, i advise 3♥ leap.

 

jump to 5♣ ? not security,4♣ is good enough

[benlessard]

our 1M opening is 12-14 or 18-22 and responder always relay (6pts+) unless he got a 55 or a 7 card suit himself.

 

so basically opener transfer in his second suit.

 

1H --1s?

 

-------------1nt------clubs

-------------2c------- Diamonds

-------------2d--------6h

-------------2h----------spades 12-14

-------------2s+ GAMMA (7 balanced hands 18+ 3532,3523,2533,3622,2632,2623,2722 + strong jumps shift with spades...

 

 

Over 1s---1nt?

2c-----diamond

2d-----hearts

2h----6spades

2s----clubs 12-14

 

2nt+ 7 bal hand +strong jump shift with clubs gamma style.

 

 

 

 

GAMMA RELAY

 

You need at least 8 step to be sure not to bust your safety zone.

Busting your safety zone means you can no longer stop at a good and safe game contract.

 

So ABCDEFGH are your 8 steps availables

 

There is 3 relay

GAMMA A

GAMMA B

GAMMA C

 

That make 4 MOD (for modificator)

 

A=+1

B=+2

C=+3

AC=+4

 

You have 5(6) DESC (for descriptives)

 

 

GAMMA D

GAMMA E

GAMMA F

GAMMA H

GAMMA G

(GAMMA I)

The value of the DESC are

 

D= 1

E= 4

F= 9

G= 14

H= 19 RARE

(I= 24 VERY RARE)

 

 

When we bid a DESC our EXACT shape will be known there is no exception to this rule.

 

Here are the hands in probability order and in fragment numerical (so 5431 come before 5413 because 31 is higher then 13)

 

 

D ----- 1 ----- 6331 ----- 5422

AD ----- 2 ----- 6313 ----- 5431

BD ----- 3 ----- 6133 ----- 5413

E ----- 4 ----- 7321 ----- 5440*

AE ----- 5 ----- 7312 ----- 5521

BE ----- 6 ----- 7231 ----- 5512

CE ----- 7 ----- 7213 ----- 6421

ACE----- 8 ----- 7132 ----- 6412

F ----- 9 ----- 7123 ----- 5530

AF ----- 10 ----- 7330 ----- 5503

BF ----- 11 ----- 7303 ----- 6430

CF ----- 12 ----- 7033 ----- 6403

ACF----- 13 ----- 8221 ----- 6511

G ----- 14 ----- 8212 ----- 6520

AG ----- 15 ----- 8122 ----- 6502

BG ----- 16 ----- 8311 ----- 7411

CG ----- 17 ----- 8320 ----- 7420

ACG----- 18 ----- 8302 ----- 7402

H 19 8230 6511

AH 20 8203 6520

BH 21 8032 6502

CH 22 8023 6610

ACH 23 9211 6601

I 24 9121 7510

AI 25 9112 7501

BI 26 9XX0 8410

CI 27 9X0X 8401

ACI 28 90XX 7600

 

 

so if you have a 2830 worth 17 pts

 

bidding will go

 

1c----1d? we pass by 1c to show 15-17 or GF hands

1h----1s?

2d (6h)---2s? (2h would be to play facing 15-17)

 

our hand is number 21 (there is a mistake in the chart p)

 

so we have to combined a mod and a desc

 

modb (+2)

desc H

 

3c (B)--------3d ?

4d (H) showing exact 2830 worth 15-17

 

 

 

 

This is not the official document so maybe mistake are in it. like its missing some 8311 .

 

but the idea is there

 

at first it may seems tough to remeber the chart but its fairly easy...

 

there is some memo tricks in the good chart

 

18= 81,

20= ,02

23 ??, 32

10 5503,7330

4 5440 7321

 

the chart has 2 column 1 for 2suiter and 1 for one suiter

 

Since its easier to have 55 always in the realy then to remove them when we open 1h

 

with 55 in majors we open 1h if the h are much better.

 

This is not very acbl legal (only in national and match of at least 12 board VS 1 opp) cauz its relaying without a GF hand.

 

 

if interested in trying the system

 

benoitlessard@hotmail.com

 

 

 

 

PS

Also IMHO..its an easy jump shift.. kqjtx and ak is suit concentration

 

would you open 1nt 15-17 or open 1d followed by a 2nt or 3M rebid ?

 

kxx

akx

KQJTx

xx

 

 

IMHO its a close call

 

 

but 5530 is much better then 3352 shapes

 

even without the hearts T i would prefer 3h to 2h even if we are agressive with our courtesy raise.

[Fluffy]

This hand is one of the merits to a good-bad 2NT without interference treatment that is becoming popular.  1M-P-1NT-P-?  2NT is a relay to 3C and shows a traditional jump shift or a forcing jump rebid.  This frees the immediate jump for a classic 5-5-5 hand (5-5, with five losers).  Although "strong" for the bid from LTC count, the poor spade secondaries justifies this call.

Are you crazy??? 2NT is GF relay! (sorry kenrexford, this is an old joke for old posters about old posts)

[Finch]

It depends also how light we open at the 1 level: I frequently open shapely 10s with nothing wasted, so the minimum for my 2H rebid is ATxxx-AQxx-x-xxx.

 

I guess this counts :(

If opener has a shapely 10 with nothing wasted opposite this hand, say,

 

AJxxx

KQxx

x

xxx

 

then

 

(i) game has (limited) play

(ii) The opponents are making a fair number of tricks in a minor

 

so you still want to raise hearts at once ...

[inquiry]

After the slow start, I would miss slam. But since this has evolved into "other" ways to bid it, if someone jump rebids 3H (fast start) slam is easy, and if they use gazilla it is still possible.

 

Having said that, I would never start this hand 1S-1NT-2H or 1S-1NT-3H or 1S-1N-2C even though I play riton (a form of gazilla I guess) and my 3H jump rebids are very limited. The reason is I play MisIry, which is used with strong two suiters with "four or less losers". This hand qualifies for a MisIry opening, so let me add some words about MisIry, This is a problem hand type for MisIry with a side suit queen being useful. But the MisIry auction would go...

 

2NT - 4♣

4♥ - 5♥

6♥.

 

This is not so much science as blind luck.

 

2NT is either a club preempt or a strong two suiter with hearts and either spades or diamonds as a second suit.

 

4♣ is raising the preempt

 

4♥ says "I have a two s uiter, made up of ♠ and ♥, with either 3 or 4 losers".

 

Responder with two sure covers (spade Queen and heart ACE) can not pass, partner might have only three losers after all. Nor can he cue-bid 4NT (which shows diamond king) or five of a minor (as he lacks a minor suit control). So he is reduced to making a natural 5♥ slam try.

 

Opener with three losers, knows his partner has two cover cards in the majors and a heart fit. Bidding the slam relies on either ruffing a diamond in dummy (maybe after running spades for diamond pitches), or finding the diamond queen in dummy. Of course, opener may wimp out (I have four losers, partner has two covers, so stop), however, his partner is known to be long in clubs and hearts, and to have two sure covers (one must be in spades, the second in spades or hearts), so bidding makes sense to me.

 

 

Ben

[Blofeld]

I would have thought that with such a great dummy for ♦s and poor spades that this would be a poor hand for MisIry, and you'd prefer to open it at the 1-level.

 

Do you use MisIry for all 5530 hands with the right number of losers, Ben?

[inquiry]

Do you use MisIry for all 5530 hands with the right number of losers, Ben?

You can construct some 5530 hands and not open them with MisIry, usually with both minors or a minor and a weak five card major. But on this hand if you open 1S and partner bids 1NT, then a jump to 3H is an "underbid". Why is that? 1S-1N-3H (if you play MisIry and Riton) shows 5-5 or 6-5 and 5 losers (or 4 losers but very control poor).

 

So, for me, if the auction started 1S-1N-3H, we would reach exactly 4H. Because partner would not be able to envision his hand being worth so much.

 

It is kind of funny to think this hand that so many are saying is not good enough for a jump to 3H, and yet for me, it is "too strong" for a jump rebid to 3H, but as you see all things are relative. Playing misiry and riton, jump shifts are always FIVE plus card (with four in second suit use riton), and limited (by failure to open misiry). For me, it is the descriptive nature of the jump shifts to suit legnth and strength that makes me like MisIry so much (yes, yes, I like the magic games and slams using MisIry sometimes find too). So I consider the jump shifts and jump rebids very much like the tradional precision 1M-bid-jump new suit by opener.

 

MisIry actually has a way to investigate diamonds as a contract and to explore if partner has the queen of diamonds over 2NT-3C, but after 2NT-4C, the auction possibilites are greatly limited.

[Chamaco]

Do you use MisIry for all 5530 hands with the right number of losers, Ben?

You can construct some 5530 hands and not open them with MisIry, usually with both minors or a minor and a weak five card major. But on this hand if you open 1S and partner bids 1NT, then a jump to 3H is an "underbid". Why is that? 1S-1N-3H (if you play MisIry and Riton) shows 5-5 or 6-5 and 5 losers (or 4 losers but very control poor).

I play, in a Precision-like context, much the same way as Ben:

 

- 3-level "reverse" after a limited opening are 55 or better, about 5 losers

- 2NT rebids after a limited opening are 64 hands or better, about 5 losers

- 4.5 - losers 55 or better are handled via higher level openings

- strong club denies 2 suiters

[benlessard]

i dont really play precision

 

 

our 1c opening is 15-17 unbalanced or GF or clubs 15+ or 15-17 bal

 

i consider south hand worth 18 pts

 

so opening 1s and jumpshifting.

 

we relay all our jumpshift.

 

1h ---1s ?relay

 

1nt---clubs 12-14 or 18-22

2c-- diamond 12-14 or 18-22

2d 6hearts 12-14 or 18-22

2h spades 12-14

 

2s+ 18-22 bal+ 5h+4s jumpshift.

 

 

So for us the south hand is too strong for a 1c opening :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hv=n=sktxxxhxxxdaxca8x&s=sahajtdxxckqxxxxx]133|200|[/hv]

 

 

same kind of hand where a underbid of 2clubs give a better chance to reach slam then the value bid of 3 clubs.

 

 

Ben