Slow Start

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sq10ha853dq72c9632&s=sk9742hkqj107dak3c]133|200|Scoring: IMP

S W N E

1♠ p 1NT p

2♥ p ?????[/hv]

 

After this slow start, can you catch up and bid the slam? System is 2/1 and 1N is forcing.

[Free]

1♠ - 1NT

2♥ - 3♥

5♣ - 5♦

5♥ - 6♥

 

Suddenly opener's hand becomes great, so exclusion BW. 5♦ 1/4 keycards, 5♥ signoff, but responder has a really nice hand with useful honours, so should probably bid 6♥. Might as well end in 5, but if opener needs 2 keycards he wouldn't try imo...

[hrothgar]

I'd be worried about missing GAME. Bidding a natural and non-forcing 2♥ with this rock-crusher is hideous. (I should be more surprised to see such a bid in the "Advanced/Expert" forum)

 

In any case,

 

The 1♠ opening is textbook.

 

Same with the forcing NT response. You plan to rebid 2♠ over either 2♣ or 2♦.

 

The 2♥ rebid makes life a bit trickier. Partner is showing 5+ Spades and 4+ Hearts. Your hand has revalued substantially. From my perspective, I'd like to be able to invite game opposite a 5=4=3=1. I'd be content to play 2♥ opposite a 5=4=1=3 or 5=4=2=2. (For what its worth, the 4th club slightly raises the odds of the first hand pattern). I suspect that I'd raise 2♥ to 3, however, its not 100% clear.

 

As for slam, you'd need the auction to start

 

1♠ - 1N

2♥ - 3♥

 

Opener will need to unilaterally force slam via ERKCB or some such because you'll never get partner to believe that you hold anything remotely resembling this hand. Of course, any such arbitary slam force runs the danger of running into a hand like

 

♠ QT

♥ AT83

♦ 9632

♣ Q72

[cherdano]

1♠ - 1NT

2♥ - 3♥

5♣ - 5♦

5♥ - 6♥

 

Suddenly opener's hand becomes great, so exclusion BW. 5♦ 1/4 keycards, 5♥ signoff, but responder has a really nice hand with useful honours, so should probably bid 6♥. Might as well end in 5, but if opener needs 2 keycards he wouldn't try imo...

Hi Frederic,

 

there is a lot in this short post that I disagree with (or let's say, incompatible with my own little personal bidding "truths"). Opener's hand doesn't suddenly become great, it's a great hand to begin with.

 

I think one should only use any form of KCB if one intends to bid 6 with one missing keycard. If you want partner's input, bid more slowly. (Or agree that 5♣ is a void splinter if your prefer -- though it would be exclusion with my preferred default agreements). Bidding on with partner's hand would be a break of partnership discipline for me.

 

So if you think you need the ♠Q, you should bid more slowly than 5♣ (although it will be hard to convince partner that two cards are enough for slam after bidding only 2♥).

 

Arend

[Winstonm]

I'd be worried about missing GAME.  Bidding a natural and non-forcing 2♥ with this rock-crusher is hideous.  (I should be more surprised to see such a bid in the "Advanced/Expert" forum)

 

In any case,

 

The 1♠ opening is textbook.

 

Same with the forcing NT response.  You plan to rebid 2♠ over either 2♣ or 2♦. 

 

The 2♥ rebid makes life a bit trickier.  Partner is showing 5+ Spades and 4+ Hearts.  Your hand has revalued substantially.  From my perspective, I'd like to be able to invite game opposite a 5=4=3=1.  I'd be content to play 2♥ opposite a 5=4=1=3 or 5=4=2=2.  (For what its worth, the 4th club slightly raises the odds of the first hand pattern).  I suspect that I'd raise 2♥ to 3, however, its not 100% clear.

 

As for slam, you'd need the auction to start

 

1♠ - 1N

2♥ - 3♥

 

Opener will need to unilaterally force slam via ERKCB or some such because you'll never get partner to believe that you hold anything remotely resembling this hand.  Of course, any such arbitary slam force runs the danger of running into a hand like

 

♠ QT

♥ AT83

♦ 9632

♣ Q72

Well stated. Could or should the opening hand bid 3H over 1N? Although a 4-loser hand, I think this overstates the relative stregths of the 2 suits. Had the hand been something like: AQJxx, KQJxx, Kxx then the 3H bid would be more comfortable. With the actual hand, you wouldn't want partner to get overly excited about Qxx, Ax, QJx, Jxxxx I wouldn't think; it is a fine line and there are good arguments on either side IMO.

 

Another question: suppose the auction did start 1S-1N-2H-3H: now what is the best continuation by opener to find slam? Should he bid shortness with 4C or cards with 4D or something else entirely? Or should 4C be an all purpose cue bid allowing a 4D Last Train bid, which would probably be best on the actual layout?

 

Winston

[Free]

to Cherdano:

 

Well yeah, the 2♥ bid is a little underbidding, but immediatly 3♥ probably promisses more...

 

Once partner has support south's hand grows like hell! He only has 4 losers (partner is short in ♠) and 9 trumps. So I guess a slam try is the least you can do, question still remains how. You don't know anything about problems in ♠ (if p has xx) and you can't find out enough by cuebidding imo, so EBW, but that's also why I signoff in 5♥, and it's still up to North to realise it's just a slam try. He has 2 useful Queens so should probably do something, but not sure ofcourse...

[mike777]

Prefer 3h not 2h.

 

Now tough but perhaps?

cuebid in length before shortness?

 

 

1s=1nt

2h=3h

4d=4h

5c=5D?

6h?

[kenrexford]

The only route to slam is for Responder, who must play with this person, to recognize that he has a HUGE hand contextually, as 1S...2H can possibly be bid on near 2C openers. Thus, I'd overstate the hand and jump to 5H, GSF. LOL

 

Seriously, no.

[Guest Jlall]

I would not jump shift with this hand. I would raise to 3H with north hand, and bid 4D with the south hand (this is a style issue whether you bid controls or shape, I prefer shape).

 

North has a big hand now with nothing in clubs and the DQ pulling some weight and the huge spades and heart holdings. That being said, his hand was minimum for a 3H bid to begin with. It's easy to say on paper north should make some kind of move (4S?) but it would be much harder in practice.

[Kalvan14]

I would not jump shift with this hand. I would raise to 3H with north hand, and bid 4D with the south hand (this is a style issue whether you bid controls or shape, I prefer shape).

 

North has a big hand now with nothing in clubs and the DQ pulling some weight and the huge spades and heart holdings. That being said, his hand was minimum for a 3H bid to begin with. It's easy to say on paper north should make some kind of move (4S?) but it would be much harder in practice.

Agreed. Bidding a fragment at 4-level is likely to be the best way of making a`slam try (even if I am not so convinced that N will accept the invitation).

 

With a pick-up partner, I'd be likely to bid 3♥ at 2nd round (it's an overbid, but a practical one)

[mikeh]

I'd like to think that, as North, I'd move over 4♦ (clearly the best call over 3♥), but I doubt that I would at the table.

 

And it would not worry me to miss this one. I stopped worrying about missing 'magic' contracts a long time ago, and my game got a lot better :P

[Fluffy]

+230 for me :P

[cherdano]

I would not jump shift with this hand. I would raise to 3H with north hand, and bid 4D with the south hand (this is a style issue whether you bid controls or shape, I prefer shape).

 

North has a big hand now with nothing in clubs and the DQ pulling some weight and the huge spades and heart holdings. That being said, his hand was minimum for a 3H bid to begin with. It's easy to say on paper north should make some kind of move (4S?) but it would be much harder in practice.

Hmm, 3 working cards and a ruffing value is still pretty good for a 3♥ raise, isn't it? One appeal of cue-bidding 4♠ is that lack of first round controls is one of my biggest worries, and partner will learn about that if he follows up with RKCB (not on this hand, of course).

 

I think the prettiest double dummy auction after the 2♥ rebid and 3♥ raise would be a void-splinter with 5♣, after which responder really knows he has a golden minimum. Too bad noone plays this :)

 

Arend

[Gerben42]

@Fluffy: then Gazilli is for you :)

[mike777]

+230 for me :rolleyes:

Another very honest post from a good player. :). One partner told me if I rebid 2h on this hand he would also pass.

[Gerben42]

Another very honest post from a good player.

 

I fear I'd be among those +230s when playing standard, but not when playing Polish Club or Fantunes. In the first 1♠ is limited so this is an easy 3♥ rebid, in the second the 3♥ rebid is limited by the 2NT rebid and Gazilli so this is another easy 3♥ rebid :rolleyes:

 

Playing standard you are looking at 1♠ 1NT 2♥ Pass

 

Anyway, slam is too unilateral as you may run into 5♥-1 if you don't watch out.

[Guest Jlall]

People passing 2H with this hand surprises me. If the spade queen was the club queen it would be more understandable, but as it is I think north owes south a courtesy raise with this hand. Maybe this is a style thing as those who would jumpshift the south hand are probably more likely to pass with the north hand.

[kenrexford]

This hand is one of the merits to a good-bad 2NT without interference treatment that is becoming popular. 1M-P-1NT-P-? 2NT is a relay to 3C and shows a traditional jump shift or a forcing jump rebid. This frees the immediate jump for a classic 5-5-5 hand (5-5, with five losers). Although "strong" for the bid from LTC count, the poor spade secondaries justifies this call.

 

The auction would start 1S-P-1NT-P-3H!

 

With two known covers, bidding the game is now easy. With Qx in spades and a fourth heart, Responder can easily visualize a possible 11th trick. But, the chance of the Qxx of diamonds being key, plus opener actually having a 4-LTC, spade weak secondaries, hand is remote at best, and no tools are there to explore this.

 

Even if one uses Flags (1S-P-1NT-P-3H-P-4C! as a heart GF, extra something), 4C would be a tad rich, and 4D (LTTC) after this is hardly designed to ask for Qxx of diamonds and Qx of spades.

 

So, I can create a very sexy auction to 4H, +2.

[Guest Jlall]

Kokish recently wrote about 3C over 2H forcing 3D and showing either a poor hand with diamonds or a "real raise" to 3H leaving a direct raise as a courtesy raise and a direct 3D as invitational. You give up on being able to bid 3C though. Another style is to raise to 3H with hands like this, up to a bad 10. With better than that just bid game (that is my style).

[Chamaco]

Maybe this is a style thing as those who would jumpshift the south hand are probably more likely to pass with the north hand.

Yes, count me in this style.

I'd jumpshift 3H with S's hand,so I am a passer with N

 

It depends also how light we open at the 1 level: I frequently open shapely 10s with nothing wasted, so the minimum for my 2H rebid is ATxxx-AQxx-x-xxx.

 

I guess this counts :rolleyes:

[Al_U_Card]

north owes south a courtesy raise with this hand.

This hand is the poster-boy for courtesy raises. A must at any time or form of scoring. Even if pard is dead minimum, 3H has to be reasonably easy to make and your raise covers any other good hand that he might have.

[Guest Jlall]

It depends also how light we open at the 1 level: I frequently open shapely 10s with nothing wasted, so the minimum for my 2H rebid is ATxxx-AQxx-x-xxx.

Good point, how light you open would also affect your call with the north hand. I am generally a soundish opener, so raising is less risky for me.

 

Another point is how light you respond. This would affect how light your JS's are... I respond very light so my JSs are a bit sounder. Again a style issue.

 

So basically, much of this whole auction is just a style issue :rolleyes:

[Winstonm]

When this occurred at the table I held the South hand. Partner and I have discussed the jump shift in this auction and by our agreements this hand did not qualify - though it is close - and I have no real objection to those who would jump shift with this hand. I think Justin is right it is a matter of style verses right or wrong.

 

Partner did well to raise to 3H and at this point I envisioned a potential slam but had no clear cut way to move onward - 4D shape is a good choice but leaves no room for partner whereas 4C leaves a spot for a 4D Last Train type bid.

 

I chose 4C (without conviction) and partner, thinking he had done his all, signed off in 4H and I didn't see a reason to press on and passed.

 

Tough choices - tough hand.

 

Winston

[mike777]

When this occurred at the table I held the South hand.  Partner and I have discussed the jump shift in this auction and by our agreements this hand did not qualify - though it is close - and I have no real objection to those who would jump shift with this hand.  I think Justin is right it is a matter of style verses right or wrong.

 

Partner did well to raise to 3H and at this point I envisioned a potential slam but had no clear cut way to move onward - 4D shape is a good choice but leaves no room for partner whereas 4C leaves a spot for a 4D Last Train type bid. 

 

I chose 4C (without conviction) and partner, thinking he had done his all, signed off in 4H and I didn't see a reason to press on and passed.

 

Tough choices - tough hand.

 

Winston

Are some rare and very complicated conventions more hurtful than helpful?

 

Great issue of Last Train and many other super expert conventions. Here is a hand you hoped partner would bid Last Train with if she had the correct hand. That prevented you from bidding 4d rather than 4c. In fact you do make 6 on this hand but she felt Last Train was not best with this hand.

 

It seems here is an example of having a convention that hurt you. You could not bid 4d as that would rob partner of a last train bid. I have never played Last Train but only ask if you guys keep a scorecard of how helpful these complicated things are?

[Chamaco]

Are some rare and very complicated conventions more hurtful than helpful?

 

.........

 

It seems here is an example of having a convention that hurt you. You could not bid 4d as that would rob partner of a last train bid. I have never played Last Train but only ask if you guys keep a scorecard of how helpful these complicated things are?

Last Train should be used in conjunction with Serious 3NT.

 

Here, with slam potential on, the bid is 3NT (although it is odd to try for slam when both hands have been limited, one by a nonforcing 2H, the other by 1NT and the single raise of H; the auction wd have been more logical after a jump to 3H by opener, another plug yadadada B) ).

 

So, I would not blame the insuccess to the adoption of LTTC, but rather on a misapplication.