I Need a 1nt structure with 4card transfer

[benlessard]

My best setup so far is

 

1nt---???

 

2c force 2d ------ pass

---------------------2h inv with 5h

---------------------2s inv 5s

---------------------2nt inv both minors not forcing

---------------------3c signoff

 

2d force 2h -------- pass

-----------------------2s inv with 44 maj non-forcing

-----------------------2nt inv with 4h

 

2h force 2s ------pass

----------------------2nt inv wih 4s

 

 

2s -------- inv with 3s not forcing

2nt -------- inv with 3h

 

 

3clubs ----------- inv with 6clubs

3d ---------------- inv with 6d

 

No need to tell its imps and not slammish at all and opener can have 5cM

 

This is for avoiding 2nt as much as possible and play 2level in a suit

 

comments ?

[awm]

Seems like you have lots of ways to invite but not so many ways to force. Honestly game forcing hands (where you want to find the right game and/or look for slam) are more frequent than invites.

 

You might want to take a look at Ron Klinger's Keri over 1NT. This doesn't really fit the idea of having "transfers to four card suits" but you never really explained why you wanted that anyway, and Keri does do a good job of playing a lot of 2M contracts on declined invites instead of playing 2NT. It also has a lot more useful game forcing sequences.

 

Keri is described in Ron Klinger's book: "Bid better, much better, over 1NT." There's apparently also an "updated" version which you can find information on by searching these forums (personally I prefer the original).

[whereagles]

Yes, you should have a look at Klinger's keri scheme.

[Free]

Maybe you want to try Heeman. I posted the FD file on the forum. It's very simple, has many ways to invite game or slam (4M 5+m for example), has 3 specific slam tools (confit, Gerber and 4-level trf followed by 'Blacky' ;) ). And it also uses transfers with 4 card suits.

 

Here's a writeup (in Dutch, but readable): http://www.jackbridge.com/pdf/dheeman.pdf

[pclayton]

Yep - this sure looks a lot like Keri to me; except 2 major after 2♦ can be a 4 card suit.

[benlessard]

1nt---

 

2c --- 2d --- 2h inv 5h+

------------- 2s inv 5s+

------------- 2nt inv 3h+ (denies 3s)

------------- 3c inv 6c

------------- 3d inv 6d+

------------- 3h Gf (13 (54)m

------------- 3s GF 31(54)m

------------- 3nt 6d 4c SI

------------- 4c keyc D

 

2d --- 2h --- 2s inv 44M

-------------- 2nt inv 4h

----------------- 3c SI 4h+5c

------------------ 3d SI 4h+5d

----------------- 3h si 5h+4c

------------------ 3s si 5h+4d

----------------- 3nt Si quant 4h

------------------ 4c KEYC H

 

 

2h --- 2s---------- 2nt inv 4s

--------------- 3c 4s+5c

-------------- 3d 4s+5d

--------------- 3h 5s+4c

--------------- 3s 5s+4d

--------------- 3nt Quant 4s

--------------- 4c keyc S

 

2s -------- Inv 3s tend to show ruff power (probably range check is better)

 

 

2nt --------- inv 54m

 

3c --------- Puppet

 

3d --- 3h --- 3s -------- (5h+4s) GF or SI

3nt ------------------- to play or Correct

 

3h --- 3s ------- 3nt paly or correct

 

3s ---------- 5s 4h GF or SI

 

3nt ----------- Watcth out 6c 4d Si

 

 

4c ------------ gerber

 

4d ----------- texas

 

4h ----------- texas

 

4s ------------ to play

 

4nt ----------- Quant

 

5c ---------- To play

 

5d ----------- to play

 

--------------

Puppet suggested doesnt promise maj.

 

3d ------- 5s or no maj -------3h ask for 5s

3h -------- 4h

3s -------- 4s

3nt ------- 5h

 

puppet followed by ------4c -------Confit style (a later 4nt is to play)

puppet followed by ------4d --------show both maj 5-5 SI

---------4h ---------- show 6h 5s SI

4s -------- 6s5h

both maj no SI is

 

1nt 3s (5s+4h)

3nt 4h

 

both min weak is

 

1nt 2c

2d pass

 

There is no club signoff (in 3c)

 

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------

I think slam bidding on 1NT is overrated.

 

I rarely miss a cold slam or bid a bad one when both hands are balanced

 

Balanced vs balanced its pure strength and correct evaluation of the value of the length of the suits.

 

 

 

Often 1nt is facing a passed hand

 

 

 

 

Our

direct 1nt is 12-14 could have 5M 1&2 seat

 

for us 1c-1d! --1nt show 15-17 bal could have a 5M but responder cannot have 5M unless 5332.

 

Why i want to make 4c transfer and not play 2 way stayman

 

is that

1nt--pass--2c isnt preemptive at all. Its just too easy for LH to make a overcall or a x.

 

That why i think 3c puppet and 3 level transfer are better for GF (no Slam) hand.

 

For inv hand (wich always lead to close game)

biding 1nt--pass--(2nt or 2s) for inv you make it harder for the lead. IMHO this is more IMPS wise then playing 2c dont promise anything wich seems costly if i check my own experience.

 

 

Also responder giving info instead of asking for info seems more natural since the opener will likely play the hand.

 

Of course only time will tell....

 

Wich i why i want to at least try it.

 

 

Benoit Lessard

[benlessard]

I Think i found what im looking for

 

1NT (12-14) but its good too on strong NT

 

2C---------ask 4h min ?

 

------- 2D-----------denies 4/5 H min

 

---------------pass---------diamonds or both red weak

---------------2h------------5h+ invite

-------------- 2S-----------sign-off

-------------- 2nt-----------4h inv

---------------3c----------- 5C+4H

---------------3d-----------5D+4h

---------------3H-----------4c+5h

---------------3s----------- 4d+5H

---------------3nt---------- Quant 4H/5H

---------------4c----------- key a H

 

------2H------------4/5H min

 

--------------pass----------invite with 4h

-------------- 2S----------- sign off

-------------- 2nt-----------Slammish

-------------- 3C----------- puppet to 3♦ slam or Soff 3♦

-------------- 3D----------- slam

-------------- 3H/S-------- slam

-------------- 3N----------- quant 4/5h

 

 

2D----------aks for 4/5 S min ?

 

------- 2H--------denies 4/5 s min

 

---------------P-----------------both maj weak

-------------- 2S---------------5s+ inv

-------------- 2NT-------------4s inv

-------------- 3C--------------slam

-------------- 3D--------------slam

-------------- 3H--------------slam

---------------3S-------------slam

---------------3NT-----------4s quantitative

---------------4C-------------RKC for s

 

--------2s----------show 4/5 s min

 

-------------- 2nt---------------slam

-------------- 3cl---------------slam

-------------- 3d--------------slam

--------------3h--------------slam

--------------3s--------------slam

--------------3nt-------------quant

-------------- 4c-------------Rkc s

 

 

2H---------------------to play

 

 

 

2S--------------------MSS

 

 

2nt ------------------INV

 

 

3c -----------------puppet non-slamish

 

3d+---------------anything--------transfer maybe

 

 

 

 

easy Recap

 

2c---show inv with 4h+----signoff in spades----signoff in diamond----slammish hand with 4h

 

2d---show inv with 4s+----weak both maj-------slammish with 4s

 

2h to play

 

2s MSS sign off in clubs---inv minors -----slammish both minors

 

2nt inv no maj

 

3c puppet stayman GF but no slamish at least 1 3M

 

 

this is much better then Keri

 

comments ?

 

Ben

[awm]

Keri can:

 

(1) Sign off in ♦ at the two level (even if partner has 4+♥)

(2) Sign off in ♣ at the three level

(3) Invite with a long minor

(4) Invite with both majors

(5) Game force with 5-4 or 4-5 majors

(6) Find a 5-3 major fit (opener having five) on the way to game

(7) Show the shortness in a strong x54x type pattern

(8) Reach 2M on a 4-3 fit instead of 2NT on a declined invite

(9) Show shortness in a three-suited pattern (i.e. 4441)

(10) Show a game force with four or five in a major, no slam interest.

 

I am not really sure how your methods are going to do these things. You claim to do both (2) and (3) via 2♠ minor suit stayman, but I can't really tell how. Keep in mind that a "hand which accepts a club invite" is not the same as a "hand that responds 3♣ to minor suit stayman" at all. A number of the sequences you describe as "quantitative" might be swapped over to solve problem (10) although distinguishing between four and five in the major still seems tricky, but then you lose the ability to make a quantitative invite to 6NT and still stop in 3NT when opener declines (which Keri can also do).

 

Anyways, I'm sure your method has some advantages (for example it does give less information to the defense on some auctions than Keri does) but to say it's "better than Keri" seems something of an exaggeration.

 

- Adam

[mike777]

Discussing nt structures, does stayman or tfr and then new suit on the 3 level showing invite but nonforcing have any value?

 

 

1nt=2d

2h=3c

?

 

or

 

 

1nt=2c

2h=3d

 

etc....

[benlessard]

(1) Sign off in ♦ at the two level (even if partner has 4+♥)

(2) Sign off in ♣ at the three level

(3) Invite with a long minor

(4) Invite with both majors

(5) Game force with 5-4 or 4-5 majors

(6) Find a 5-3 major fit (opener having five) on the way to game

(7) Show the shortness in a strong x54x type pattern

(8) Reach 2M on a 4-3 fit instead of 2NT on a declined invite

(9) Show shortness in a three-suited pattern (i.e. 4441)

(10) Show a game force with four or five in a major, no slam interest.

 

 

 

 

 

(1) only when responder has 4/5 h min we play 3d or 2h instead of 2d

 

(2) 2s followed by 3c is to play

 

(3) 2s followed by 3d is inv

 

(4) this is an illusion since even if opener have both maj we play 2 h/s in 44

if responder have both M opener need 4h. While in Keri opener needs 4s otherwise he play 2nt or 3h.

 

(5) transfer followed by a forcing 3 bid is GF SI

 

(6) if opener is maximum he can bid over 2nt any bid to show 4/5 in the unbid majors

 

(7) this isnt perfect but i have transfer and 3level bid showing 5-4 or 4-4 available for this.

 

its becasue i play 2nt as not-forcing that i lose some sequence (but i could use the exact 2nt (puppet staym) and 3club submarine xfer as keri.

 

(8) we just need to transfer into a 3 card but the hand need to be unbalanced for this

 

X xxx QJxx AKJxx

 

1nt---2c---2h (4h min) pass

 

playing in a 4-3 fit when its opener (balanced) who have 3c support is bad IMHO

its better we the unbalanced h have 3 support then the opposite

 

If Opener have 4h max we might still endup in 3nt or 4h. depending on our 3 level bidding

 

(9) not really a problems since transfer and 3 level bid are slammish.

 

 

 

1nt 2d 2h (denies 4s min) ---the full 3 level is slamish even 3nt

 

(10) Puppet stayman at the 3 level. This is great since it avoid lead directing overcall.

 

 

The reason why im convinced that my stayman is better is that

 

 

we dont play inv 6 carder at the 3 level. we play the right 4-3 fit not the wrong one.

 

here are the inv possibility --that i want to play at the 2 level.

 

resp------opener

 

4----------3----------keri----but this is bad imho

 

3-----------4---------------my system (if responder is unbal and doesnt have the OM)

 

3 -----------5-------------my system (if responder is unbal and doesnt have the OM)

 

4-----------4,5-------Keri--------my system

 

5-----------3---------keri---------my sytem

 

6-----------2--------------------my system

 

6-----------3---------keri------my system

 

 

If responder is GF no problem,, if opener is max no problem

 

only when opener is min and responder is inv there is a problem.

 

Keri cut the pear in half by using 4-5 inv---(do you have 3,4,5 ?). but opener cannot pass with 2 and playing in 4-3 with opener 3343 wont be fun.

 

While i use 3-4 (do you have 4,5 ?) and 5-6-7+ (pass if your min)

 

when responder have a 5or6 card INV you have to be able to play 2 in a suit.

 

the more i think about it the more its cristal clear that keri is inferior.

 

as for detailed slam tools i easily can play 2s..2nt..3c + as a mean slam machine.

 

But we dont really need it since our strong nt goes by 1c.

 

Playing 2s as range-check and 2nt puppet and 3c+ as gadget may be better for slam purpose but i like the 2nt inv 1950 style. Giving left opp a free shot to overcall is costly imho. That why i think playing 2c stayman and 4way transfer is poor .

 

only thing imnot sure thought is should i take the long run (2c--2d/h---2s) to play 2s

 

or take the long run to play MSS.

 

1nt ----2h/2s to play has a nice preemptive feel to it.

 

but mss (slammish both min, inv D, Soff 3c and 31(54), 13(54) ) are very vulnerable to overcall.

 

 

Also by adopting 2 step transfer often we can decide the side that we want to play the contract. quite usefull in slam bidding. Also lead directing x lose power when you can rightside the contract.

 

 

Ben

 

 

Ps i dont know how updated the keri system maybe i was checking an old version..

 

if some1 has a link to a recent one it would be appreciated.

[awm]

(1) Sign off in ♦ at the two level (even if partner has 4+♥)

 

--> (1) only when responder has 4/5 h min we play 3d or 2h instead of 2d

 

So what do you bid with 3-2-5-3 opposite 1NT? If you try to sign off in diamonds and opener shows up with 4-5 hearts, you're either passing (likely 4-2 fit) or playing diamonds at the three-level. On the other hand, it's not like you are safe bidding 2♣ with 2-4-4-3 since when partner doesn't have four hearts you will often reach a 4-3 or 4-2 fit. This definitely cuts down on the number of hands that can issue a diamond signoff.

 

(2) Sign off in ♣ at the three level

(3) Invite with a long minor

 

--> (2) 2s followed by 3c is to play

--> (3) 2s followed by 3d is inv

 

There is still no way to invite with clubs. It also seems like 2♠ is not really minor suit stayman -- opener is apparently not supposed to bid a four-card diamond suit because partner could have the club signoff. Seems more like 2♠ is puppet to 2NT (or maybe a 3♣ bid is permitted on some hands, but certainly 3♦ is not). This means you don't gain a lot of the advantages of minor suit stayman in looking for minor suit slams.

 

(4) Invite with both majors

 

--> (4) this is an illusion since even if opener have both maj we play 2 h/s in 44

if responder have both M opener need 4h. While in Keri opener needs 4s otherwise he play 2nt or 3h.

 

Sure, it's true that Keri doesn't let you play a 4-4 heart fit at the two level when responder has both majors. However, I don't see how you can show this hand at all. If you start with 2♣ and partner doesn't have four hearts, then a 2♠ continuation is signoff (not invite) and the only other non-game-force bid is 2NT. Sure, you can bid 2NT, and perhaps opener can try spades on the way to 3NT with an accept... but you can't play even 3♠ on a declined invite here. Keri will let you play 3♥ on a declined invite if it comes to that.

 

With 5♠ and 4♥ things are even worse. Even regular stayman will allow you to check for both major fits and then play 2♠ if opener has no fit and a minimum. If you start 2♣, there is no sensible way to show the five spades since after partner denies 4♥ your only invite sequence is 2NT -- you could miss a nine card spade fit. If you start 2♦, then you can try 2♠ over partner's 2♥ to show invite with five spades, but if partner's not going to game you could miss a nine card heart fit (opener has five, responder four).

 

(5) Game force with 5-4 or 4-5 majors

 

--> (5) transfer followed by a forcing 3 bid is GF SI

 

If you start by showing hearts (via 2♣) and partner denies holding four hearts and min, then there is no forcing continuation that shows spades. The three-level bids all show hearts and a minor. If you start by showing spades (via 2♦) and partner denies holding four spades and min, then you can show hearts by bidding 3♥; however if you are making this bid with both five spades and four hearts, and four spades and five hearts, then partner will have trouble getting you to all the major suit fits and you'll miss some. There is also no way to show a one-suited slam try in hearts unless 2♦ followed by 3♥ shows this -- in which case that sequence no longer guarantees 4-5♠ and makes it still more annoying to game force with both majors.

 

(6) Find a 5-3 major fit (opener having five) on the way to game

 

--> (6) if opener is maximum he can bid over 2nt any bid to show 4/5 in the unbid majors

 

This works if responder has an invite with no 4+ card major and opener accepts. But this is only one of many cases. The really annoying situation is where responder has a game force with a five card major. In fact I really don't see how to bid a 5-3-3-2 game force in these methods, keeping in mind that I don't want to suggest slam interest. Puppet does not work for these hands.

I suppose you can start with 2♦ and follow up with three of the major (although this nominally shows slam interest) but you'll never find a fit this way in the other major.

 

(7) Show the shortness in a strong x54x type pattern

 

--> (7) this isnt perfect but i have transfer and 3level bid showing 5-4 or 4-4 available for this.

its becasue i play 2nt as not-forcing that i lose some sequence (but i could use the exact 2nt (puppet staym) and 3club submarine xfer as keri.

 

Keri tends to have more space on these hands. Keri-Garrod (a modified version) actually shows both the five card suit and four card suit, and the shortage below 3NT. This is hard for you in part because 2♣ doesn't show five hearts, so you need both 4-5 and 5-4 hands in the sequences, whereas transfer followed by a suit does normally show 5 in the major. Also, you have no sequences for specifically 5-5 hands (although in principle you can show 5-4 and go from there). In fact I don't see a clear way to show a two-suiter with spades while distinguishing four spades from five, since all these hands with spades seem to need to go through 2♦ and the followups don't distinguish four spades and five.

 

(8) Reach 2M on a 4-3 fit instead of 2NT on a declined invite

 

--> (8) we just need to transfer into a 3 card but the hand need to be unbalanced for this

X xxx QJxx AKJxx

1nt---2c---2h (4h min) pass

playing in a 4-3 fit when its opener (balanced) who have 3c support is bad IMHO

its better we the unbalanced h have 3 support then the opposite

If Opener have 4h max we might still endup in 3nt or 4h. depending on our 3 level bidding

 

I agree that 2♥ will be a good contract if opener has four and a min here. But if you start with 2♣ and opener bids 2♦ (denying four-five hearts and min), what is your follow-up? It seems that your only invitational follow-up is 2NT, which shows four hearts, or 2♥, which shows five hearts. Then again, these are awkward hands in most methods.

 

I disagree with your assessment that 2NT will be better than 2♥ with a 4-3 fit and two balanced hands though.

 

(9) Show shortness in a three-suited pattern (i.e. 4441)

 

--> (9) not really a problems since transfer and 3 level bid are slammish.

 

These hands are not necessarily slammish, unless opener has a true perfecto. Often you are just trying to avoid the embarrassment of playing 3nt when opener has weakness opposite the singleton. Certainly you can transfer and then make a three-level bid, but this means suit lengths are very much unknown, and the primary feature of the hand (the shortness) is unknown. This is a substantially worse situation than Keri (when you just show this hand directly).

 

(10) Show a game force with four or five in a major, no slam interest.

 

--> (10) Puppet stayman at the 3 level. This is great since it avoid lead directing overcall.

 

Puppet doesn't find 5-3 fits where responder has five.