Penalty or takeout?

[Dwingo]

My partner and I had a misunderstanding on the meaning of the Double in this sequence.

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sjxh10xxxdaxxca10xx&w=skxxhjxxxxdjxxxcx&e=sq10xxxxhkqdxxcjxx&s=saxhaxdkqxxckqxxx]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

North East South West

-- ..... 2♠ ... 2NT .... 3♠

X ....... P....... P ....... P

 

 

I was South and passed my Partner's X taking it as a penalty X. My understanding was that any Double opposite a hand that has bid NT is a penalty double.

 

My partner was of the opinion that a double after a weak 2 bid that has been bid and supported cannot be penalty as there is no way to find a 4 - 4 heart fit at the 4 level, if the double here is treated as penalty. His understanding was that Doubles after a 9 card fit has been established cannot be a Penalty Double.

 

Our Opps were down 1 when we had a cold 9 tricks in 3NT available. This board turned out to be bad for us because of this misunderstanding.

 

My questions:

 

1) What is the expert treatment here in this sequence?

2) How do we find a 4-4 heart fit, if this sequence is penalty?

3) When is a double penalty in these type of sequences?

 

Godwin

[mike777]

South can just rebid 3nt but north is trying for perfection in a crowded auction.

 

Tell your partner (north) if you cared about 4-4 h fits you would make a takeout x. Your partner, North, cannot have a boatload of spades...so his x must be responsive. One can debate whether it promises 4h 100% but it does show general values with no clear direction. I would just bid 3nt with the north hand rather than try for perfection at the 4 level. Once again trying to bid perfectly and describe one's hand completely results in confusion.

 

North seems too worried about you having 4 decent hearts and having spades stopped. Preempts work, just try and make normal bids. Again as South just rebid 3nt.

[pclayton]

Clearly takeout (or responsive). North's hand looks perfect for a x.

 

I'd be a little concerned about the single spade stopper as South and would try 4♣ and play in 5♣ I suppose.

[adhoc3]

I think when DBL on 3S is penalty, PASS should be take-out. Vice versa.

[Free]

- You're lucky RHO didn't open 3♠ at those colors B)

- Dbl can't be penalty when he can only have 2 ♠s, so it must be takeout

[toothbrush]

At first glance, this seemed a penalty double to me because the 2NT-bidder has described his hand very well (~15-18hcp, semi-balanced). But when playing it like that, I think you should pass with the north hand and you get even a worse score (3♠-1, undoubled) :s

I see that there must be a reason why in this case dbl is not for penalty, but I would like to know which is the principle behind it.

[Free]

If the 2NT bidder wants to penalty dbl, he'll do it himself...

[toothbrush]

I see, may be a good agreement to say that a double is for takeout when partner already promised a stopper in the suit, just like here.

[Al_U_Card]

As always, gray areas lead to the most difficulty. You have a very heavy 2NT overcall with relatively bad shape. 3C gets you to the C game and double gets you to 4NT after the expected 3S bump and 4H response by pard. Will pard take it as KC? Probably, so a robust 3C gets my vote. No problems likely after that as 2NT not only denies 4 H cards but, in general, it also tends to show 2 solid stoppers in their suit.

[pclayton]

What is this baloney about "2N denying 4♥'s"? B)

 

2N does not deny 4♥'s. Frankly, there are a lot of hands where 2N can even contain a 5 card heart suit.

 

I suppose these same players don't use Stayman over 2N either. B)

 

What would bid over 2♠ holding: ♠AQx, ♥Qxxxx, ♦AJx, ♣Kx? Please don't say you'd double.

[Guest Jlall]

negative Xs are vital at the 3 level if you ever want to find your 4-4 fits.

[mikeh]

There was no 'right' answer to the problem confronting the partnership at the table, since they had no agreement.

 

As is often the case, even a 'bad' agreement would have been better than no agreement. Thus, if you believe that the correct bridge treatment of double is takeout, I think you'd still agree that knowing that it was penalty would have been better than having to guess, and vice versa.

 

Which should it be?

 

I think that the takeout camp wins here, because when you hold a takeout hand, you have no call other than double, whereas when you have a penalty type hand (which will never be on a trump stack) you can usually survive fairly well by bidding 3N.

 

The good news, for the poster, is that he now has or will shortly have an agreement :)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

a matter of partnership agreement,

standard is probably penalty, probably

more useful is takeout.

 

They have at least a 8 card fit, most likely

a 9 card fit, partner promised a stopper

an, ... this usually means not the single Ace,

so you cant hold a trump stack, since there

are only 13 cards of a specific suit.

 

In other words: Even penalty means, that

the double shows defencive values outside

their tump suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Winstonm]

There was no 'right' answer to the problem confronting the partnership at the table, since they had no agreement.

 

As is often the case, even a 'bad' agreement would have been better than no agreement. Thus, if you believe that the correct bridge treatment of double is takeout, I think you'd still agree that knowing that it was penalty would have been better than having to guess, and vice versa.

 

Which should it be?

 

I think that the takeout camp wins here, because when you hold a takeout hand, you have no call other than double, whereas when you have a penalty type hand (which will never be on a trump stack) you can usually survive fairly well by bidding 3N.

 

The good news, for the poster, is that he now has or will shortly have an agreement :)

Mike always says it well.

 

Basically, there are 3 hand types (at least) you would like to show, penalty double, card-showing cooperative double, and takeout double - trouble is you only have one bid to use. Pick your poison and live with the results. The key issue is "live with the results". It's only one hand and agreements/system cannot possibly cover all hand types - so when one comes up that doesn't match the system/agreements and you end up with a poor result, the one thing you don't want to do is rehash it over and over and let it bother you. Accept the limitations inherent in the game and stay "at the table" as Hamman would say and simply move on to the next hand.

 

If an agreement is consistently producing poor results, then away from the table is the time to address the issue and perhaps change - but once agreed, it can't be changed in the middle of a hand and probably shouldn't be done in the middle of a set of boards either. Time to cool down is necessary to look at the problem dispassionately.

 

Winston

[mcphee]

It is not practical to play dble as penalty in this postion. A person could make up several hands where you might make 6 in another denomination and 3N fails. This is not the sort of result anyone would like.

 

When partner overcalls NT they have made what is termed a "limit bid" and they have BID the value of the holding. Now the responding player gets to ask questions in order to arrive in the best strain.

 

There is no reason for the NT hand to say dble to 2S simply because they have a 4 card H suit when bidding 2N is more descriptive of what they have. This is how you end up playing 4-2 fits. Ridiculous? I would never pass my partners 3C bid with only 2 cards. A player who thinks along this line has zero chance to come out on top.

 

Bid what you have and TELL parnter and use both partners heads to arrive at the optimum contracts. 2NT overcalls methods on, 3 level interference negative doubles apply. just like 1NT 3S dble, partner I have game values (perhaps more) and no clear bid, what would you like to do?

[Fluffy]

4-4 fits aren't that great when opponets preempt, chances of 4-1 increase.

 

Having a penalty double helps when they raise on singleton partner's 5 card opening don't you think?

 

Unless pass is forcing, you are forced to have a way to penalise them, otherwise they will jsut bid 3♠ with any 13 cards.

[jdeegan]

:) IMO partner's double should show cards and at least three spades. You can't find a 4-4 ♥ fit on this auction, and as mentioned above, why would you want to do so when a 4-1 trump division is probably close to 50%. How can you say that a pass is forcing? Partner;s hand may well contain the only 16 HCP your side holds.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

:P  IMO partner's double should show cards and at least three spades. 

<snip>

If you wait for 3 spades, you will have

to wait for a long time, at least if you

take the given specific auction into

account.

 

This assumes, that your opponents

know, that they should not raise to 3S

with only two card support, this leaves

the case, that the weak two bid was made

on a 5 card suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdeegan]

<snip>

:rolleyes:  IMO partner's double should show cards and at least three spades. 

<snip>

If you wait for 3 spades, you will have

to wait for a long time, at least if you

take the given specific auction into

account.

 

This assumes, that your opponents

know, that they should not raise to 3S

with only two card support, this leaves

the case, that the weak two bid was made

on a 5 card suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

;) True, but I don't give up much either. In my games, you gotta keep 'em in line or they will start trying to steal ..