Yet another forcing pass question

[keylime]

You are red vs. white, and your opps are of decent quality.

 

P (3C) 4S (5D)

 

Are there any forcing pass agreements in place here for this auction from pard?

 

*nota bene* Many have diverging views on this.

[Kalvan14]

IMO, no forcing pass situation has been created. N has bid 4♠, admittedly r vs w, but it would not be different if he had opened 4♠. S has just limited his hand by passing.

[fred]

You are red vs. white, and your opps are of decent quality.

 

P (3C) 4S (5D)

 

Are there any forcing pass agreements in place here for this auction from pard?

 

*nota bene* Many have diverging views on this.

My partner and I play that 4S shows a strong hand and creates a force.

 

Vulnerability does not come into the equation for us.

 

I have no strong convictions that this is the right way to play.

 

As far as I can tell, we play fewer high-level sequences as forcing than most pairs (in America at least).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Kalvan14]

You are red vs. white, and your opps are of decent quality.

 

P (3C) 4S (5D)

 

Are there any forcing pass agreements in place here for this auction from pard?

 

*nota bene* Many have diverging views on this.

My partner and I play that 4S shows a strong hand and creates a force.

 

Vulnerability does not come into the equation for us.

 

I have no strong convictions that this is the right way to play.

 

As far as I can tell, we play fewer high-level sequences as forcing than most pairs (in America at least).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Does it mean that a pass over 5♦ would be forcing? Are you playing that X denies defense?

[fred]

You are red vs. white, and your opps are of decent quality.

 

P (3C) 4S (5D)

 

Are there any forcing pass agreements in place here for this auction from pard?

 

*nota bene* Many have diverging views on this.

My partner and I play that 4S shows a strong hand and creates a force.

 

Vulnerability does not come into the equation for us.

 

I have no strong convictions that this is the right way to play.

 

As far as I can tell, we play fewer high-level sequences as forcing than most pairs (in America at least).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Does it mean that a pass over 5♦ would be forcing? Are you playing that X denies defense?

In my regular partnership:

 

DBL says "I think we should defend".

 

Pass (forcing) says "I am not sure what to do. I expect you to DBL with most normal hands and bid with an abnormally offensive hand".

 

Bid says "I think it is right to bid".

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Guest Jlall]

I play the same way as Fred.

[Finch]

I'm interested to hear how Fred and Justin play this, because I don't play this as forcing, for two reasons:

 

i) It is not clear whose hand it is (5D may have been bid to make)

ii) It is virtually impossible that the partner of the 4S bidder has a diamond trump stack. So we play double of 5D as showing "convertible values" or whatever the current terminology is, and double by the 4S bidder as showing extras.

 

I can't get too worried about this, however, because it's

- not a very common sequence

- unlikely to make a huge difference: you aren't particularly likely to pass out 5D anyway so in practice you just double on a hand that you would have made a forcing pass. You are trading some extra precision in making a slam try with the ability to pass out 5D.

 

The sequence (3C) action (5C) Pass is quite interesting. There is quite a lot to be said for playing this as forcing, though in fact I don't.

[000002]

♠ AKQxxxx

♥ AQX

♦ xx

♣x

 

This is a typical hand of 4♠ leap,the defence tricks is poor under 3,because 5♦ up over 5♣,these means he has a strong hand too.Something like:

x

Kxx

AKJxxxxx

x

 

So i deny /doubt this forcing pass.THe forcing pass should base on certain 21HCPs+,i suggest.

[fred]

♠ AKQxxxx

♥ AQX

♦ xx

♣x

 

This is a typical hand of 4♠ leap,the defence tricks is poor under 3,because 5♦ up over 5♣,these means he has a strong hand too.Something like:

x

Kxx

AKJxxxxx

x

 

So i deny /doubt this forcing pass.THe forcing pass should base on certain 21HCPs+,i suggest.

You are correct that the usual reason for playing a given Pass as forcing is that the partnership making the Pass in question has already established that they are likely to have they have a clear majority of the high cards. For example:

 

1) Pass is forcing after we have opened 2C

2) Pass is forcing after we open at the 1-level and make a game-forcing 2/1 response

3) Pass is forcing after responder makes an invitational bid based at least partly on high cards and opener has gone on to game.

 

I think everyone would agree with rules 1 and 2 above. Some would not agree with 3 (since both responder and opener may be acting due in part to substantial distributional values).

 

However, there is another way to justify that a particular Pass should be forcing. This area is not generally well known or well understand, even at the highest levels. The auction in this thread is a perfect example of what I call a "math based forcing Pass".

 

Here is a argument that I expect will be novel for many of you as to why there is a good case to play this Pass as forcing:

 

When someone jumps to 4S over a 3C preempt, he is advertising both a lot of tricks and significant high card strength. The more tricks he has, the less high cards he needs, and vice versa.

 

My contention is that, regardless of where opener's hand fits into the offense/defense continuum, it is usually wrong from a math point of view to let the opponents play in 5D undoubled.

 

If the 4S bidder's hand is maximum in terms of offense, his hand will be worth roughly 9 or 10 tricks opposite "nothing".

 

In this case it will almost always be right to take some kind of action over 5D. If 5D is going down then you should double it. If 5D is making then you will usually have a good sacrifice in 5S.

 

If the 4S bidder has a less offensive hand, he will have more in the way of high cards. Although he will rarely "know" that 5D is going down, he will have enough defense that he is willing to bet on this.

 

For sure sometimes using a forcing Pass in this auction will endplay you into choosing between -550 and -800. That is the price you pay for his agreeement.

 

However, in my experience these deals are rare - especially if your 4S overcalls are disciplined. Also, even when these disaster layouts exist, the opponents may not be in a position to know that they can nail you.

 

I would guess that the downside of the "disaster scenario" is roughly balanced out by the upside of having "pass and pull" (as a slam try) available as a result of using Pass as forcing.

 

The further (and greater) upside of using Pass as forcing is that this will allow for more accurate 5-level decisions.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[awm]

I've always played forcing passes slightly differently from how Fred does. Basically:

 

(1) Double indicates desire to defend.

(2) Pass indicates uncertainty, but expect partner to bid on with many ordinary hands.

(3) Competing indicates desire to compete, with a great deal of certainty.

 

This is not a big difference to be sure, but the tendencies are slightly different. The reasoning behind this method is that, if I double and partner has a real freak of an offensive hand, partner can always pull the double. But if I compete and partner has a very defensive hand and was eager to penalize, then he can't pull back my call and defend instead. So I'd rather double when we should compete than compete when we should double, as in the first case partner has the opportunity to correct my mistake.

 

Anyways, I think this hand is a forcing pass situation.

[Kalvan14]

Interesting topic. I play forcing passes as Fred does, except in the case under discussion here. I can see the advantages (and the possible disadvantages too); I'll have to think a bit more on this sequence (which is not really too common); however, my first reaction would be to play double without defense, if pass is forcing (and should promise at least one defensive trick).

[000002]

If the bidding auction happened as follows:

3♣=4♠=5♣=?

I think the mass of WC player would suggest a forcing pass,in spite of a little reluctant.

 

which hand can i bid 5♦ over partner's weak 3♣ opening?please notice it means maybe o trick to help 5♦ player.is 9tricks 5♦ has really sufficient?i think 8 solid cards♦ +2cards ♣ is minimum verge.if we punish 5♦ , down 2 is rare,and forcing pass force a double or 5♠.

 

When someone jump to 4♠,can his partner bid 5♥ to show a natural longer ♥suit?emphasis with 4cards minors usally.so i think 5♥ is slam invitation.

 

i am interesting to hear which hand 4♠ leaper hold,it's very important to this puzzle.

 

regards 000002

[000002]

For example:

 

3) Pass is forcing after responder makes an invitational bid based at least partly on high cards and opener has gone on to game.

 

The further (and greater) upside of using Pass as forcing is that this will allow for more accurate 5-level decisions.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

I agree the front of your3),but i should argue against rear of 3):

when i invite a game, we will be certain of reaching 3♥+,and competitor locate on 3♠+up,why they don't jump to 3♠ with 9cards trump?balanced hand.this is maybe a dangreuos doule but i should give them,because it's coperation double when opps fit ,and it's punlishment when opps compete solely. If they compete 4minor with 17minus ,a co-double from my hand should send out with 50% defence high card.

Why we need a "go on to game" hand?

 

The further (and greater) upside of using Pass as forcing is that this will allow for more accurate 5-level decisions.

I think we need an accurate 5-level decision-- only-- based on we have absolute vantage ,otherwise, 5-level is belong to opps as someone ever advised.

 

regards happey new year

000002

[keylime]

My thoughts for what they are worth was this:

 

1. I held the 4S hand (AQJxxx Axx Qx Ax). I feel that being red on white bidding game voluntarily should merit being in a forcing pass situations; I've suggested a place to play.

 

2. With the opps bidding two new suits, the thought of "take the sure profit" crossed my mind.

 

3. My pard was passed hand (KT9x xx AJx xxxx). Her thoughts with bidding 5 spades was as follows:

 

a.) I don't have many clubs at all.

b.) I don't want to miss a vulnerable game.

c.) I do have diamonds under wraps.

 

Admittedly forcing pass is an area yet to be discussed in proper detail; this hand exposed the lack of agreements.

[000002]

1. I held the 4S hand (AQJxxx Axx Qx Ax).

17hcps and 6322,bid ♠ following a standard take-out double .

others would suggest to overcall 3♠ directly if it's not superexcellent high card as this.

[Winstonm]

I agree with JLall and Fred that this is a forcing pass situation - however, I prefer to reverse meanings: pass shows a hand more inclined to defend and double a hand more inclined to bid on. This would work well with Fred's analysis, it seems, as with a weak hand advancer would double to show no strong interest in bidding on, allowing overcaller the option to convert with strong HCP or takeout with shape.

 

The main point is that 4S is not a bid of weakness - there are some hands that are unbiddable and if you start preempting over preempts then you lose out on all your constructive hands.

 

Winston

[000002]

-------

The main point is that 4S is not a bid of weakness - there are some hands that are unbiddable and if you start preempting over preempts then you lose out on all your constructive hands.

 

Winston

assume there exist a forcing pass as you show, that means either 5♠ or 5♦-x must be the final contract. and it means the follow auction is ineluctability:

 

(3♣)--4♠--(5♦)--pass

(pass)--X/5♠

 

in as much,does the forcing pass by 4♠'s partner have any real reason to exist in?his x is penalty,pass is weakness or strongest ,5♥ is natural invitation or strongest,5♠ is offensive.The forcing pass only distinguish the difference between penalty and weakness(something about 1King+1Queen) since his hand limited 10HCPs(decent opps 17hcps total).

The price is helping opps to verdict whether proceeed 6-level-minor or not,It is a possible making up contract based on a leading ,even iron slam.

 

i oppugn there are no convince reason of forcing pass.

 

 

i am very interesting going on to argue against you, you are the real expert player as i found.

[Winstonm]

-------

The main point is that 4S is not a bid of weakness - there are some hands that are unbiddable and if you start preempting over preempts then you lose out on all your constructive hands.

 

Winston

assume there exist a forcing pass as you show, that means either 5♠ or 5♦-x must be the final contract. and it means the follow auction is ineluctability:

 

(3♣)--4♠--(5♦)--pass

(pass)--X/5♠

 

in as much,does the forcing pass by 4♠'s partner have any real reason to exist in?his x is penalty,pass is weakness or strongest ,5♥ is natural invitation or strongest,5♠ is offensive.The forcing pass only distinguish the difference between penalty and weakness(something about 1King+1Queen) since his hand limited 10HCPs(decent opps 17hcps total).

The price is helping opps to verdict whether proceeed 6-level-minor or not,It is a possible making up contract based on a leading ,even iron slam.

 

i oppugn there are no convince reason of forcing pass.

 

 

i am very interesting going on to argue against you, you are the real expert player as i found.

I think Fred said it eloquently and best. The main point of contention seems to be in what constitutes a jump to game over a preempt - IMO this should be a strong hand either in high cards or in playing strength - it is a bid with high expectations of making the contract and suggesting a higher contract.

 

3C-?

 

KQ109642, 4, KJxx, x.

 

As much as I'd like to bid 4S with this hand, it simply doesn't qualify in my definition so I'd have to content myself with 3S if I were to bid. Does this risk missing game? No doubt. But on the other hand, it helps partner know what to do when I do jump to game.

 

AKJ10xx, AQ, KQxx, x. When I bid 4S with this hand, partner is in better position to evaluate his control cards for slam.

 

When I jump to 4S, I will have a virtual 10 trick playing hand or a strong hand and either way I want parter to act over if the opponents compete to the 5 level. I believe this is precisely what Fred said, the only difference being the definitions we assign to pass and double.

 

Winston

[MickyB]

I agree that pass should be forcing, I consider 4♠ to be a constructively bid game.

 

Frances - I don't see how you can consider playing 3♣-3♠-5♣-P as forcing but not 3♣-4♠-5♦-P. Yes, 5♦ may have been bid to make, but so may 5♣; and partner of the overcaller is unlikely to have a trump stack on either auction.

[Finch]

I don't play either of them as forcing. I just wanted to bring up the auction 3C 4S 5C P as well, as it's a much more common auction.

 

And how about 3C - 3S - 5C - ?

3C - x- 5C - ?

[000002]

----------

KQ109642, 4, KJxx, x.

---------

As much as I'd like to bid 4S with this hand, it simply doesn't qualify in my definition so I'd have to content myself with 3S if I were to bid. Does this risk missing game? No doubt. But on the other hand, it helps partner know what to do when I do jump to game.

-----------

AKJ10xx, AQ, KQxx, x. When I bid 4S with this hand, partner is in better position to evaluate his control cards for slam.

-----------

 

Winston

Take the hand(KQ109642, 4, KJxx, x.) i will jump 4♠ too.but i should bid a double at the firt with the another hand (AKJ10xx, AQ, KQxx, x.) is it any problem to start a t/o double?

 

Is these the essential reason for our divergence?

 

And i oppugn that you can hold ♦KJXX when opps overcall 5♦ and you partner will pass your balanced double after his own forcing pass:

3♣- 4♠- 5♦- pass

pass -double-pass-pass?

is it an actual affair on the table ?he has sigleton or void on ♦ with an 9hcps to opening hand{since 5♦ deny 5♣ contract ,it's the most possibility a special 7-4 suiter contain ♦+♥}

[Winstonm]

Take the hand(KQ109642, 4, KJxx, x.) i will jump 4♠ too.but i should bid a double at the firt with the another hand (AKJ10xx, AQ, KQxx, x.) is it any problem to start a t/o double?

 

Only when it goes:

3C-X-5C-P

P-??

 

Better to bid 4S the first time and show the suit and the hand in one bid, no?

 

Winston

[000002]

I like you as i find LOL

 

The hand as below:

x

Kxx

Axxxx

xxxx

Against 4♠ leap with your hand(AKJxxx/AQ/KQxx/x),did u have any reason to reach this 6♦ slam?but it's easy to bid slam if u start a T/O.

 

Every competitive style has own foible,that is doomed,destined by god.

 

more faster to reach,more weaker it's.