Always negative?

[adhoc3]

Some players stated: "Double is always negative." Well, maybe up to 7H for them. For most players, the negative double is up to 3S or 4H.

 

Axx KQJTx Kxx xx

 

Playing precision system, weak NT 12-15 including 5332, 5 major. Negative double to 4H. I opened 1H, good suit which I want PD lead. LHO preempted 3S, and PD doubled. The first reflection in my mind was pass, but there's discipline. 4C/D would be out of imagination, 3NT was quite suspectable, I choosed 4H, -3, sadly. Here is the PD's hand:

 

JT xx Txxx AKxxx

 

What's your choice? How far would you agree with PD's double?

 

I wished I had opened 1NT. After 3S, PD could not make negative double, which promised hearts. He probably had to pass. But it was still far from 4 minor contract even I had a minor suit indeed.

 

According to the traveller, 3S-2 would be a par, nobody doubled. Some made 3S and a top, but should be a gift.

 

North hand was pretty standard: 23589QK 78 8J 2J. South was very kind that did not put his red card on 4H.

 

Any comments? Thanks.

[pbleighton]

Your pd should have passed.

 

This is especially true since you were playing Precision, and he knew you were limited to 15 hcp.

 

Peter

[Winstonm]

Your pd should have passed.

 

This is especially true since you were playing Precision, and he knew you were limited to 15 hcp. 

 

Peter

ditto

[joker_gib]

Ditto, your partner is to weak to bid

[Flame]

The first reflection in my mind was pass, but there's discipline.

You are wrong about this, negative double doesnt mean you have to take it out, its not anti disipline to pass a negative double, in fact its exactly what your partner expect you to do when you have a balanced hand with no better alternative.

Im not claiming that pass is right here, im saying its a good alternative and there is nothing undispline about it.

[bearmum]

Your pd should have passed.

 

This is especially true since you were playing Precision, and he knew you were limited to 15 hcp. 

 

Peter

I agree :angry: BUT I play Precision and only play neg Xs to 3♠ :D

 

 

to answer original post

IF you play 1NT as 5332 ( 5 major) then WHY open 1♥? IMHO you either play your system or you will face hands like this where as YOU stated "I wished I had opened 1NT"

 

Last of all MAYBE S forgot to double :o

[Free]

I would pass your hand: we have a misfit, I have a decent suit which p can still lead (♠A is gold!) and we have some values, enough to defeat them.

 

It's not a pretty double imo, without singletons these contracts will always be hard. I'd rather play Dbl as stopper ask, since you don't have cuebids available. Doubles at higher levels shouldn't always be negative, you can also have slam ambition and want to double and repeat partner's suit. As long as Dbl isn't one-way negative double, you have a lot more options.

 

Also I agree with Bearmum for once :o : you should play your system...

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

I do not know what I would have opened with your hand. I also can open 1NT with

 

a five card major. With the good hearts, I might also open 1H as a lead directing

 

bid.

 

If you post this hand as a lead problem, the majority will lead a heart after a one

 

heart opening. If you open 1NT, the lead problem would suddenly attract a much

 

larger variety of answers.

 

Your partner made a double without the needed values for the level of bidding.

 

You still should have passed, what additional values do you hold after opening 1H?

 

You do have seven losers and a 5332 shape.

 

Your partner also denied 3 card support(after the 1H opening) so you had an easy

 

pass.

 

There is no question of 'breaking' discipline involved in passing 3SXed, at higher

 

levels balanced hands often pass the double.

 

Regards,

Robert

[adhoc3]

Getting out of the posted hand, my questions was: is a negative double alway negative and not passable?

 

Thanks for all comments. A negative is passable -- but better bid something because it's agreed the double is not penalty oriental. For too many times, I've seen people arguing badly for the pass, especially when the passed one has not certain resources of tricks (of couse the doubled contract made at that time lol).

 

Do you agree PD should make negative double with the following hands?

 

xx Ax AQxx Qxxxx, pass the double would be the best

x xx AQxxx AKxxx, 12 tricks not too hard

Kxx Ax AQxx AKxx, 3SX-4, 800 is too cheap

x xx Axxxx Axxxx, will you pass after 3S?

 

For my hand Axx KQJTx Kxx xx, there's no proper bid after my pd's double (super light one, we agreed >10p on 3 level) on 3S. So pass is of standard PTB sysem (Pass-when-nothing-To-Bid system:P ). However, assume LHO preempted 2S and PD doubled, I still cant make a sound bid. OK, 2NT, implying no preference in minor and stop in spade, how wbout xxx KQJTx Kxx Ax? showing no stop and interests in minor? Have to bid 3H I think. Bidding weak NT, I can get out of these trouble by opening 1NT. But how could SAYC and 2/1 players make it?

 

What's the ideal agreement between partners? Did you ever crazy of partner's pass on your negative double?

 

 

BTW, I somewhat feel guilty on 1H opening, although there could be another story to tell all of you:) Thanks Robert's backup on my decision;).

[Flame]

Adhoc the law is your answer.

[Finch]

At the risk of stating the obvious: when your opponents pre-empt and it's your hand, you cannot get to the right contract every time. Ignoring the inferences from your system (because I don't play limited openings so I haven't thought them through, not because they aren't worth thinking about), there are three main ways to play the double after 1H - (3S)

 

a) Penalties. Partner should pass unless he has an exceptional hand

B) Balanced(ish) take-out - "convertable values". Partner passes on most balanced or semi-balanced hands with some spade length such as your example hand

c) Take-out. Partner is expected to bid the majority of the time

 

While a) has generally been found to be inferior, and is played less often, people sometimes try to play both B) and c) at the same time. You can't afford to do that. If you decide to play c) you have to bid 3NT over 3S on some hands that aren't perfect (Axx Ax Kxxx Kxxx for example) because it's the last chance you have to bid it; if you double partner will bid at the 4-level (the alternative is to pass and pray partner re-opens with a double). If you decide to play B) you can't really afford to double on your example hand x xx AKxxx AQxxx because it will end the auction too often.

 

Your first example, xx Ax AQxx Qxxxx is a take-out double playing either B) or c), but you will get a better result playing B).

 

I agree with others that your partner's hand on this example was too weak to act, by the way.

[Flame]

one last thing, partner didnt deny 3 hearts by doubling, he wont have 4 but 3 is still possible.

[akhare]

Some players stated: "Double is always negative." Well, maybe up to 7H for them. For most players, the negative double is up to 3S or 4H.

 

Axx KQJTx Kxx xx

I think your partner should have passed, in any case, pass by you looks like a pretty clear option especially given that you hold that all important card: the ace of trump....

 

Atul