Walddk Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 [hv=d=s&v=b&s=s86432hdaqj3ca1043]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Do you open this hand in 1st seat? Before you reply, you may want to consider what your rebid will be if partner responds 2♥. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 I open if I am playing 2/1 with Rule of 20 openings. I then have an easy 3C rebid, as I don't play that it shows extras. Playing Standard American, it's tougher. I open, and rebid that glorious spade suit after 2H. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 I pass and the only rebid I have if I open is 2♠ Alain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Obvious opener and equally obvious 2♠ rebid. (At least for me :P) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 There's actually a lot to be said for opening 1♦ on this hand. That spade suit looks more like a four-card suit than five to me... In addition to the problems of a sequence like 1♠-2♥, you have a good chance to end up in a 5-2 spade fit playing standard methods after a 1♠ opening (i.e. 1♠-1NT-2m-2♠). If you end up defending, partner could easily make an awful spade lead (like ♠K from Kx). If partner is in the game or slam zone, then opening 1♠ can cause partner to misevaluate shortness or fitting honors in the spade suit (how's partner to know that Kxx AKxx x KQxxx offers little play for a club or spade slam, whereas x AKxx Kxx KQxxx is pure gold and club slam is almost cold, when we open in spades)? The 1♦ bid gets the right lead from partner if we defend. It simplifies the auction if partner bids hearts (gee I will bid 1♠ now) or notrump (I can rebid clubs and we have a guaranteed minor suit fit). It helps partner make the right evaluation for game/slam decision (i.e. ♦K is a huge card, spade shortness is helpful, spade honors are nothing special). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 There's actually a lot to be said for opening 1♦ on this hand. That spade suit looks more like a four-card suit than five to me... In addition to the problems of a sequence like 1♠-2♥, you have a good chance to end up in a 5-2 spade fit playing standard methods after a 1♠ opening (i.e. 1♠-1NT-2m-2♠). If you end up defending, partner could easily make an awful spade lead (like ♠K from Kx). If partner is in the game or slam zone, then opening 1♠ can cause partner to misevaluate shortness or fitting honors in the spade suit (how's partner to know that Kxx AKxx x KQxxx offers little play for a club or spade slam, whereas x AKxx Kxx KQxxx is pure gold and club slam is almost cold, when we open in spades)? The 1♦ bid gets the right lead from partner if we defend. It simplifies the auction if partner bids hearts (gee I will bid 1♠ now) or notrump (I can rebid clubs and we have a guaranteed minor suit fit). It helps partner make the right evaluation for game/slam decision (i.e. ♦K is a huge card, spade shortness is helpful, spade honors are nothing special). Agree with this diagnosis If you chose to open (and its FAR from mandatory), 1♦ looks like the best choice playing standard methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 [hv=d=s&v=b&s=s86432hdaqj3ca1043]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Do you open this hand in 1st seat? Before you reply, you may want to consider what your rebid will be if partner responds 2♥. Roland Easy pass, next hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 1♠ and an unabashed 2♠ rebid over 2♥. Sometimes pard doesn't respond 2♥........ 1♦ is possible I guess but its a bit of a mastermind. Sure my 8-5th is horrible, but how worse is it than J-5th or K-5th? If we do end up in a 5-3 spade fit (perhaps 3-5 is a better description), a ymmud will play well. And 5-4-4's are much better placed in a suit contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Is the glass half-empty or half-full? The reason to open this hand is to get to game that wouldn't be reached otherwise, something like Axxx, Jxx, xxxx, Kx opposite. The reason to pass this hand is that 2H will make it uncomfortable to continue, having to rebid a moth-eaten 5-bagger. Although I am in the camp of sounder openings with minor-suit hands, I am in the opposite camp when it comes to majors - if a couple of well placed cards and a 9-card fit are all I need for a reasonable game I believe in opening the hands. I respect anyone who passes or bids differently here - I really do think this is a style issue rather than a right or wrong issue. One more time, though, the issue of limited opening bids verses standard bidding makes this even more problematic. Winston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 1S, over 2H I will bid 2S.Ugly, but what else. Marlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 1♠ then 2♠. I open this hand. I do not use the Rule of 20 (one of the least useful of the several unhelpful arithmetical formulae that have crept into the game), nor would I ever dream of rebidding a minor at the 3-level: to me that shows significant extras. The only reason for passing is fear of 2♥ by partner, or 1N followed by a preference on Jx or the like. The latter case does not worry me too much: I expect to elope with several small trump, unless the opps pull trump, and then I can hope for tricks in one of my minors. As for the big fear, 2♥, well: there is no rule that says that 2♥ dooms us to a minus score :D In my partnerships, and for most 2/1 players (not all, by any means) 2♠ is a default noise: partner will not usually raise with 2 card support: partner has a forcing 2N rebid available if nothing else suits. If you are going to stay in bed because you are afraid of a 2♥ response, consider: a) what if partner has a poor hand with 4♠: you may be on for a game and get shut out, even if you get in your double after the opps bid and respond. B) partner opens 1 of a minor. Are you really happy with 1♠? Or he opens 1♥. Are you really happy with 1♠? Live in fear? Stay away from the bridge table B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blofeld Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 I don't think that it's quite fair to call 1♦ a mastermind. You're just picking 1♦ as the best description of the hand. Which, in a certain sense, it is. I'd definitely open this, and waver between 1♦ and 1♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 "The reason to open this hand is to get to game that wouldn't be reached otherwise, something like Axxx, Jxx, xxxx, Kx opposite." Well, it's one reason. The other is that opening 1S can muck up the opps' bidding. "I respect anyone who passes or bids differently here - I really do think this is a style issue rather than a right or wrong issue." Agree. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Passing is out of the questionI might open this 1♣If I open 1♠ I would rebid 2♠ over 2♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Obvious 1♦ opener, if partner makes a preempt at 2♥ I'll pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 I don't think that it's quite fair to call 1♦ a mastermind. You're just picking 1♦ as the best description of the hand. Which, in a certain sense, it is. I'd definitely open this, and waver between 1♦ and 1♠. Whenever you open a shorter minor in favor of a longer major, its a mastermind. You are intentionally distorting your hand pattern. Mind you, masterminding isn't always a negative. I can easily see how 1♦ can lead to a successful result. It may get pard off the spade lead. Better yet, it might lead to a great 5 or 6 of a minor contract when pard doesn't downgrade his spade shortness. I might even go so far to say that 1♦ could work out a majority of the time. However, its not my style to start distorting my hand at my 1st turn in the bidding. There are intangible factors for me and how they relate to my partnership that have overriding considerations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Is it really necessary to teach newer players that to open this hand is necessary to be a better player? I note Richard's comment that opening is not mandatory. thanks. Not only open it but open it 1c or 1d? Open it 1s and rebid 2s over 2h? If passing is out of the question then I do not fully and completely understand the question and all of its ramifications. Perhaps teaching newer players how to bid game after passing this hand is a more important bridge skill to teach us as opposed to what suit to open or suit to rebid with this hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Is it really necessary to teach newer players that to open this hand is necessary to be a better player? Not only open it but open it 1c or 1d? I certainly don't believe that beginning players should be taught that they must open this hand. I also think that its a mistake to teach them them that they must pass this hand... Absolute rules and rote memorization is a bad way to learn. Personally, I think that the best way to make se of this discussion is to try to understand why different players are advocating various approaches... Personally, I like to out the opponents under immediate pressure. Hence I dislike pass. Equally significant, I dislike a 1♠ opening despite its preemptive effect. I don't really want a spade lead and the auction could get really ugly. 1♦ looks like a reasonable compromise between 1♠ and pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 "Is it really necessary to teach newer players that to open this hand is necessary to be a better player?" No, the point of this thread is whether or not this hand is an opener. "Perhaps teaching newer players how to bid game after passing this hand is a more important bridge skill to teach us as opposed to what suit to open or suit to rebid with this hand?" It is an equally important skill, but not the point of this thread. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 This is an opening bid so I open it. But with what? 1♦ when showing at least 4 cards is a good description I think and avoids rebid problems (even when promising just 3 but I'm still no fan of that anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 <!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> Both </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> 86432 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> AQJ3 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> A1043 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end --> Do you open this hand in 1st seat? Before you reply, you may want to consider what your rebid will be if partner responds 2♥. Roland I WILL open the hand but firstly WHAT system are you playing ?? IF SAYC -- will P bid TWO♥ over a minor suit opening from me?? -- and if so is that WJS or SJS (16+) ? The answers to the above questions will impact what I bid first BUT I am sure going to bid on this hand :) :) :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted December 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 I did not have the imagination to contemplate that anyone would open 1 of a minor. I thought the only problem was if this is a 1♠-opening or a pass. I do not play canape openings in my natural systems. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 I did not have the imagination to contemplate that anyone would open 1 of a minor. I thought the only problem was if this is a 1♠-opening or a pass. I do not play canape openings in my natural systems. Roland Neither do I, I don't open 4CM either :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 I did not have the imagination to contemplate that anyone would open 1 of a minor. I thought the only problem was if this is a 1♠-opening or a pass. I do not play canape openings in my natural systems. Roland none of the individuals suggesting a 1♦ are doing so in the context of a canape opening style. Rather, they suggesting that judgement can be applied within the context of "standard" bidding. Good players routinely exercise judgement regarding the strength of different hands. Some 14 HCP hands are worth a "15-17" HCP 1NT opening. Some 15 HCP hands are not. Players recommending a 1m opening are exercising the same discretionary power... As you yourself noted in the original posting, one of the main problems with a 1♠ opening is the dubious quality of the "5" card suit. Accordingly, a lot of the player who chose to open explicitly compensate by treating xxxxx as 4 cards. This is very different from an agreement to play canape Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 I would open 1S and painlessly rebid 2S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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