DONT and what is stronger?

[Badmonster]

Let's assume that we are going to play DONT, even though many prefer capp. There are two ways to get to 2s, and what I'm really trying to get a handle on is how strong is a hand that x's first then bids spades, and how weak is a hand that bids them directly? Any thoughts will be appreciated.

[Kalvan14]

I play DONT too. My agreement is that an immediate 2♠ is equivalent to a 2♠ weak opening bid (losers to be adjusted in terms of vulnerability: which means that NV vs V I would bid 2♠ with quite a crappy hand); X and then 2♠ shows a richer hand: something like 5-5.5 losers NV and 4-4.5 V; in general this auction promises an opening bid values.

 

The idea is that you want to pre-empt asap with a weak hand, and you can afford to go in more slowly with a better hand (and pard can convert yr X, btw)

[Badmonster]

Thank you, this really helps to clarify it.

 

When you x first and then opps bid, do you take another stab at it at the two level if the opportunity presents itself?

[pigpenz]

i believe the double first and then bidding spades is stronger.

Dont is bases on the principle of law of total tricks....someone did a study of hands against NT openings and found that something like 70% they had an 8 card fit.

[Kalvan14]

Thank you, this really helps to clarify it.

 

When you x first and then opps bid, do you take another stab at it at the two level if the opportunity presents itself?

It depends on the actual hands, and the vulnerability. There is no fixed rule. In general, spades 1-suiter are strongish in the slow-shows fashion; but there is not a similar guarantee for other 1-suiters

[Guest Jlall]

I will almost never double then bid 2S. If I did, I would have a very strong playing hand interested in game opposite a useful hand. A general guideline would be a hand that would open 1S and jump rebid 3S. Getting to game is a very low priority when they open a strong NT, and you take up MUCH more space by bidding 2S instead of Xing. Taking away the whole 2 level is huge.

[Badmonster]

Thanks, Kalvan and Jlall. The picture is really coming together.

 

Jlall, you really hit on what was bothering me. Why x when you can bid 2s. The words weak and strong while giving clues were not painting a clear picture. Your example is crystal clear.

[mike777]

I will almost never double then bid 2S. If I did, I would have a very strong playing hand interested in game opposite a useful hand. A general guideline would be a hand that would open 1S and jump rebid 3S. Getting to game is a very low priority when they open a strong NT, and you take up MUCH more space by bidding 2S instead of Xing. Taking away the whole 2 level is huge.

Along those lines I went to Modified DONT

 

Btw if feeling frisky try only having 4-4 in your 2 suited bids. Be prepared to go for numbers at times.

 

2h=hearts

2s=spades

2c=c and higher

2d=d and higher

x=one suited minor or both majors

[mikeh]

I will almost never double then bid 2S. If I did, I would have a very strong playing hand interested in game opposite a useful hand. A general guideline would be a hand that would open 1S and jump rebid 3S.

Precisely the description I give to anyone who wants to play DONT :P

[barmar]

By similar logic, if you're playing Cappalletti there are two ways to get to 3♣ -- 2♣-2♦-3♣, or immediate 3♣. The former should also show a better hand. It probably doesn't really exist -- how often do you think you can make a game in a minor when they've opened 1NT?

[Free]

I will almost never double then bid 2S. If I did, I would have a very strong playing hand interested in game opposite a useful hand. A general guideline would be a hand that would open 1S and jump rebid 3S. Getting to game is a very low priority when they open a strong NT, and you take up MUCH more space by bidding 2S instead of Xing. Taking away the whole 2 level is huge.

Along those lines I went to Modified DONT

 

Btw if feeling frisky try only having 4-4 in your 2 suited bids. Be prepared to go for numbers at times.

 

2h=hearts

2s=spades

2c=c and higher

2d=d and higher

x=one suited minor or both majors

If you use the convention wisely, even with 4-4's, you'll not go down for a number that often. I've been playing Meckwell and DONT with several partners, always from 4-4, and it seldom backfires. The only thing you have to realize is you don't have to bid whenever you have the right distribution. Well placed honours are worth a lot more! :P

 

As for the 2♠ intervention vs Dbl first: as others mentioned, immediate 2♠ is weaker. NV vs V you might want to intervene on a 5 card suit. Then the immediate 2♠ bid might come in handy as well, but imo it's better to just bid 2♠ whenever you have some ♠s...

[barmar]

I won't frequently bid with 4-4 in direct seat, but I usually will with a weak hand in balancing seat. Partner is marked with a decent hand sitting over the NT opener. And he's also somewhat balanced, since with a distributional hand he probably would have bid, so we're likely to find an OK fit.