Missed slam

[dcvetkov]

[hv=n=skxxxxxhqxxxdaxca&s=saj10xhakxxdxxxc10x]133|200|[/hv]

 

North South

1♠ 2♥

3♥ 4♠ All Pass

 

 

How do you assign blame percentages? Obviously top contract is 7 hearts, but even getting to 6 of major should get above average score. Looks simple, but its easy to mess up the easy one too.

 

Any ideas how to bid to 7H?

 

1) Using plain SAYC

2) Using 2/1

[Kalvan14]

I would put all the blame on N: with a magnificent double fit in the majors, and 2 A in the unbidden suits, he just cannot pass 4♠.

The fast arrival set up by S should be once again a confirmation that S controls are in the majors.

With the given auction, I'd bid 4N (KC).

7 ♥ (7♠ would not really be a good bargain :P ) is a bit tough to reach without the ♠Q. In any case, it requires hearts 3-2 (68%); even with 3-2 in hearts, it will go down 50% of the times spades are 3-0: play 6♥ or 6♠ (6♥ is better).

[Gerben42]

Not idea what kind of Ace asking is included in SAYC business. But in a standardish system, where 2/1 is GF or not (not needed):

 

1♠ - 2NT (Jacoby = GF 4+♠)

3♣ (short ♣) - 3♥ (natural)

4NT (RKC for ♥) - 5♦ (0 or 3)

6/7♥ - Pass

[Robert]

Hi Kalvan14

 

Somehow I 'knew' that you would bid 4NT. :)

 

Do you really expect south to bid differently holding

 

AJ10x Axxx Kxx xx or AJ10x Axxx xxx Kx the exact same HCP and controls!

 

If they are playing 'fast arrival', a 3S bid would suggest 'extra' values which are

 

certainly 'not' present.

 

You might also notice that holding @ 8 losers in the 2H

 

hand 'might' strongly suggest a fast arrrival 'jump' to 4S was clear cut.

 

Or do minimum responding hands 'always' cuebid a 2nd round control holding a

 

weakish 4 card suit that partner just raised and @ 'eight' losers?

 

Does either example suggest that your RKC bid was somewhat premature? :P

 

The rest of your post is quite good, except for the comment about reaching slam

 

is harder 'without' the spade Queen.

 

Decent(normal? good?) RKC replies show the Queen 'if' ten cards or more are held

 

in the combined hands.

 

1S-2NT Jacoby promising 4 card support would be one auction that allowed the

 

spade Queen to be 'shown.'

 

Very good analysis of why 'not' to bid 7M. I agree with those

 

comments 100%. Well done. :)

 

Best regards,

Robert

[Kalvan14]

Robert,

I knew you would post, after having read (and misunderstood) my own previous post. In a way, you are quite predictable.

 

Obviously, I was referring to the auction posted by dcvetkov. This auction might be criticised, given the shorter-than-promised heart suit; IMHO, in the posted hand it worked like a charm. S showed his hearts (ok, just four; OTOH, headed by AK :P ), showed his good support in spades and denied a control in the unbid suits. This is the principle of fast arrival. I trust you are following me.

 

This obviously means that it "must" be this hand. It cannot be the other hands hypotized by you

 

Quote "AJ10x Axxx Kxx xx or AJ10x Axxx xxx Kx the exact same HCP and controls!" Unquote

 

Neither of this hands is suitable for a fast arrival (nor for bidding 2♥, I'd add).

I trust you are with me up to now.

 

Quote "7 ♥ (7♠ would not really be a good bargain ) is a bit tough to reach without the ♠Q." Unquote

This 2nd quotation is from my earlier post. The ♠Q is not 100% necessary for the Grand Slam (in hearts): N/S enjoy 10 spades between them. IMHO, while it is quite easy to ascertain the absence of the infamous Q (via the RKC, as you so learnedly point out), it is a bit more difficult to find out the aggregate spade length.

 

The funny thing is that by bidding a "strange" 2♥ dcvetkov easily solves the main problem (which is finding the secondary fit in hearts). I suppose I'd absolve him from the lesser sin of being unable to correctly judge the total number of spades.

 

In the meantime, I have to remark that your first bid would be 2NT (Jacoby). I am almost sure that it would be not so easy to find the hearts fit, at least not as easy as it was for dcvetkov and his partner. IMHO, the Jacoby convention is a quite useful tool, and I play a modified version of it myself. I trust you will not mind if I refrain using the Jacoby convention whenever there is a 2nd suit headed by 2 of the 3 top honors. The choice of committing to game with "just 12 hcp" might again be criticised; IMHO, 5 controls and an assured 9 cards fit (as a minimum) fully justify the 2♥ bid. In particular, since it would gain a very clear and justified re-bid (4♠).

 

Now look at N hand: Kxxxxx Qxxx Ax A. 5 losers.

Let's check how many S promises to cover, using an old fashioned RKC. OMG, just 2 kc, and no ♠Q. OTOH, look again at the choice of bids by S: do they suggest a concentration of values in the majors? I would say that S made a very good picture bid. Now it is up to N to use it. The K♥ is pretty easy to find. The 4th spde might appear more complicated: However, S choose to bid game in spades, notwithstanding the certain fit in hearts. This would strongly hint to a 4th spade, wouldn't it?

 

The choice of bidding a small slam, or to go for a Grand Slam, is entirely up to N.

I trust that he will consider the following points: 1. hearts might be 4 cards only, given the concentration of values and the safe haven in the top suit; 2. even if hearts might be just an 8-card fit, playing a small or a grand in it (rather than in spades) is strongly advisable.

[luke warm]

i don't think it's anyone's fault, playing sayc of 2/1... maybe south could have started with 3♣ (bergen limit) or 2nt (jacoby), but even so ...

[pbleighton]

"i don't think it's anyone's fault, playing sayc of 2/1"

 

I agree, and also agree that 2NT was South's call - he only has 4 hearts, and 2H shows 5.

 

Even with that bid, I don't think most pairs would get to slam. I wouldn't. What does South bid after 3C from North at the table, as opposed to in a BBO Forum thread? I would bid 4S, as would most players I know. You have a min GF, and three small diamonds.

 

There are pairs who would find a slam at the table, but I think they fall into two categories:

True experts, with excellent slam-bidding tools.

Slam-happy pairs, who almost never miss a slam, but who bid a lot of bad ones.

 

Peter

[cherdano]

I don't claim I would get to slam, but I disagree with the auctions so far. After 1♠-2NT, I wouldn't show club shortness. After all, ♣K is exactly as useful as the ♦K. I think opener should make whatever bid shows a (semi-)balanced hand with extras.

 

Arend

[Fluffy]

I would had missed the slam also

[bearmum]

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ Kxxxxx ♥ Qxxx ♦ Ax ♣ A ♠ AJ10x ♥ AKxx ♦ xxx ♣ 10x

 

North            South

1♠            2♥

3♥            4♠    All Pass

 

 

How do you assign blame percentages? Obviously top contract is 7 hearts, but even getting to 6 of major should get above average score. Looks simple, but its easy to mess up the easy one too.

 

Any  ideas how to bid to 7H?

 

1) Using plain SAYC

2) Using 2/1

FIRSTLY WHY is SEVEN ♥ the optimum contract? -- only 4/4 fit (useless against a 5/0 dist if in SEVEN ♥)

 

Playing EITHER SAYC or 2/1 I would NEVER bid 2♥ over 1♠ with ONLY four ♥s ( I prefer a way to show 4 card support for p's ♠s)

 

I do not believe there is a SANE way to bid 7♥

[Al_U_Card]

Seems there is only 6S as a possibility after the Jacoby raise, and even it will fail on a bad H split......if the S queen proves problematic. The 5 loser hand, once the big S fit is shown, can afford to start some q-bidding or ace asking and get to the reasonable 6 Spades.

[hrothgar]

I do not believe there is a SANE way to bid 7♥

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy....

[mcphee]

This is not a hand that makes a 2/1. While the concentration of values in the suit are what we would like to tell about, we have lied about the lenght of the suit which may me very important in the later choice of contracts.

 

When 2NT is used as a forcing raise and asking bid, I'm not so certain I would not bid 3C which shows shortness. The other choice would be 3S, "partner I have a good hand". The oepening hand falls into this good group because; 1:5 control points, 2: a 6th trump.

 

If the N hand elects to bid 3C showing shortness, a 3H bid is not termed as natural, it is a cue bid. While some pairs always bid hacoby when they have a forcing raise and 4 trumps, many experts would never by pass a 5 card trick taking suit to do so, say AQJxx , or AKxxx, the choice is usually show that as we can next support partners major and exchange information from that point on.

 

The reason I prefer to bid 3C to show shortness is because it allows the F ahnd to show control cards at a cheaper level. One of the things that slips past players is that both hands are unlimited once jacoby is used and it is up to both players to allow their partner to adequately tell about their hand.

 

It is true the Jacoby 2NT will not allow you to find 7H which is a good spot. You would need to be playing some type of relay method to find H, like the artificial 2C repsonse to show a GF ahnd and ask about shape of the opening hand. It takes a lot to beat 7H and should I happen to reach that spot and go down, rather than be sad I would still be delighted that I found the optimum spot.

[Robert]

Hi Kalvan14

 

I sincerely hope that I misunderstood your post.

 

Predictable, like I bid most slams 'virtually every time' by jumping to 4NT?

 

My favorite slam bidding methods use cuebids or Last Train.

 

Obvious to you, but not to someone who 'read your question'. Even 'if' you meant

 

someone else's double 'that they had meant as penalty', you addressed your

 

question to me(by name) and I answered 'that' question.

 

If you do not want me to answer a question, do not direct it to me by using

 

my 'name.'

 

I rarely have any idea of what your bidding means.

 

That is why I tend to post example hands with the same values and 'no chance' for

 

your suggested auction leading to a decent contract.

 

Fast arrival by a good bidder shows minimum values for his previous bidding.

 

It does not deny a side control.

 

If you used 'picture jumps' those bids do 'deny a side control.'

 

You and I both could agree 99.44% that the 2H bid was not the best. :)

 

You might have some different understanding about what 'fast arrival'

 

and 'picture jumps' are, but I know the difference.

 

Difficult for you to 'find' ten spades? 'Obvious' to some players, I was careful to

 

suggest an auction where 2NT 'showed' a 4 card raise. Just that bid alone allows

 

North to 'know' about the combined ten card spade holding. :)

 

If you like to find out about secondary fits, I suggest Romex. They bid 1S-2NT-3H

 

to show a 4 card heart suit and can ask for the remaining shape.

 

It is no sin to bid 2Hs. It is a matter of opinion.

 

What religion gave you the power to absolve sins? :)

 

Some bidders can find out about extra cards in the spade suit. My Grand Slam

 

force bidding can 'show' both +1 and +2 cards longer than promised. :)

 

You are 'almost sure' that I would not find the secondary heart fit. :)

 

I do play 5NT 'pick a slam' and I also play many Romex bidding methods. :)

 

Do not be 'almost sure' about other bidding methods results, just because your

 

methods cannot find a side 4-4 fit using a Jacoby 'type' raise.

 

Many(most) people raise a 2H response with 3(three) card support. Your idea that

 

a 4-4 fit has been found after 1S-2H-3H is not something that most bidders would

 

believe.

 

Please feel free to use any possible methods that you like. I also play a highly

 

modified Jacoby 'type' raise by an 'unpassed' hand.

 

I do not force to game with 12HCP in my methods, but 2/1 was one of the choices

 

and those methods do force to game with 12HCP.

 

Bidding 1S-2H does not solve your problem, it may add to the problem. How you

 

will ever convince your partner that you hold AJ10x of spades and bid 2Hs with a

 

four card suit are only part of your added problems.

 

'Hinting at four card spade support headed by the AJ10x' and also 'only' holding

 

AKxx in hearts after 1S-2H-3H-4S might not be a bad idea after prior agreement.

 

I would not bid that way. It contradicts your choice of 'not using Jacoby' because

 

you wanted to find a side 4-4 heart fit(which your bidding did not find, you found

 

either a 4-3 or 4-4 heart fit)

 

You also forced to game by jumping to 4Ss on the 'same exact hand' that you 'felt'

 

was not worth a GF Jacoby bid. :)

 

Best regards,

Robert

[luke warm]

I do not believe there is a SANE way to bid 7♥

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy....

well said

 

there are many "sane" methods to reach 7♥, but i don't think sayc or 2/1 has the tools to do so with this hand... i'm sure richard (and others) have ways.. a possible 2/1 auction

 

1s : 2nt

3nt : 4h (3nt shows a good hand but not a *real* good hand, usually 15-17 or so)

4nt : 5h (south's 4h made north rethink slam)

5nt : 6h

 

and now 6s... in a standard system, hearts probably get lost... the other point is north's 3nt rather than 3c... that's a tough call, i guess it depends on your philosophy re: splintering with an ace

[mikeh]

I join with those who admit they would not bid a slam, at least in SAYC.

 

My old relay partnership might do it, because S would discover the 6=4 major shape early and could afford to ask for controls, and then would be sure of at least 5-level safety.

 

I do sometimes play a form of Jacoby which permits opener to show a side 4 card suit and responder to ask what that suit is. Such a method MIGHT find ♥. BTW, 7♥ is a bad grand to bid.

 

However, my suspicion is that as South I would be hard pressed to get excited even after discovering a ♥ fit. For all I know I would be facing KQxxx QJxx Kx Qx and even game might fail: with no 5-level safety at all.

 

BTW, I saw one posting suggesting Jacoby 2N with a shortness 3♣ and now a natural 3♥. It is not for me to say that that is unplayable, but it is certainly novel. I would expect 99.9% of Jacoby 2N bidders (who use 3♣ as shortness: in many styles it is not) to treat 3♥ as a cue.

 

Further BTW, while I understand the points made re 2♥ being ok on AKxx, it is not a standard interpretation either. We recently had a thread on why it is usually used to guarantee 5+ cards.

 

I have looked at the sequences leading to slam and, forgive me, but they all have the appearance of auctions made after knowing the hands.

[Al_U_Card]

I guess my real problem with the hand is that since I would open it in 1st or 2nd seat, I would use the Jacoby raise and not the Bergen variety. That being said, after a Rev. Bergen 3C, 3D q,3H q,4C q, 4H q.....would you not launch into Blackwood with QJxx of H and the known 10 card fit?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I will give it a try, not sure I even reach 6 ...

 

1S - 3S (1)

4C (2) - 4H (3)

4NT(4) - 5H (5)

6S (6)

 

(1) limit raise with 4 trumps, the hand has 8 looser, if I have counted

correct, and it has 4 trumps => 3S

(2) Cue Bid, showing the Ace or King

5 loosers, because of the 6-4 fit and the control richness,

you can reduce the number of loosers by one

(3) Cue, could be shortage

(4) Cross road, if you play, that the cue promises

golden cards, and is not a forced cue bid,

you can bid 4NT

Another possible option would be, that 4H is last train,

responders hand would justify such a bid

but I dont play it, so I cant say how proceed from there

(5) 2 Key Cards, No Queen of Trump

(6) Partner wont have enough, to make 7S playable

 

Unsure, if this auction would be occuring, if my partner is North

and I South, there is a fair chance, switch the persons, we may

stop in 4S

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[awm]

I think the real decision point on this hand is responder's first bid. If responder makes a limit raise, I'm probably just bidding 4♠ with opener's hand and ending the auction.

 

However, with so many quick tricks and the ♠JT, I think it is reasonable to force game on responder's hand. Hard to honestly say what I'd do since I've seen both hands, but certainly the responder in the example auction chose to game force. The next question is how to game force.

 

If I was going to force game with responder's hand (I certainly think and hope I would) then I'd probably start with Jacoby 2NT. This would lead to a straightforward auction:

 

1♠-2NT

3♣ (shortage) - 3♥ (cue)

4♣ - 4♥

4NT - 5♥ (two no queen)

5NT - 6♥ (♥K, no minor suit king)

6♠ - Pass

 

After hearing about AK of hearts and four-card support in a game-forcing hand, opener can pretty much count the tricks. He needs only the spade ace or the spade queen plus a side king to make six good, so blasting into keycard is pretty obvious. Opener also knows that in a ten-card fit the spade queen should not prevent a grand from making.

 

I confess that it would never really occur to me to bid hearts from responder's side, or to play this hand in hearts. On the other hand, I think that after responder made the choice to respond with a 2/1 in hearts, a heart slam can be reached. The problem is that opener will not know partner has four spades, and with one fewer spade the grand slam is quite poor... so I'd expect an end result of 6♥.

[dcvetkov]

For the postings, it apprear to me, that partnership need good methods or judgment, after Jacoby 2NT ( South hand is better then limit raise, IMO), like opportunity to introduce real second 4 card cuit, and not treat 3♥ bid as que bid for spades.

 

 

Also, I dont agree with some posting that North should bid 3C after Jacoby, ( implying shortness, nor 3NT ( it shows some 15-17, but more balanced hand, like 5-3-3-2, not 6-4-2-1. 3♠ is probably least of evils showing longer spades and extra values.

 

Also, 7♥ is not a terrible or INSANE slam. It needs 3-2 trumps and 2-1 spades, or barring some LIghtner dbl for spades,so its definitely above 50%, you all've been in worse. But i wont be surprised is very few pairs reach it in a very strong field or bidding poll.

[pbleighton]

Questions for those who would push to slam after J2NT:

 

For those who would rebid something other than 3C with the opener's hand after a 2NT response, it's my understanding that 3C is the ONLY response allowable under classic J2NT. If you have a singleton or void, you must show it. Do you have a different understanding, or is your suggestion based on a customized version?

 

For those who would cue bid 3H after a 3C rebid, do you always cue bid an ace or void after a shortness-showing rebid? Again, in classic J2NT, 3C promises no extra values or trump length - it could be a 5431 11 count (or 12 count, if you don't open 11s). I consider responder's hand to be a minimum GF. Whose responsibility is it, after 1S-2NT-3C, to put on the brakes if they have a minimum?

I would bid 4S after 3C with the South hand. To me, 3H is an overbid. 3H should show extras. Also, doesn't the 3 small diamonds after pd has shown club shortness give you some pause?

 

Peter

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

after Jacoby 2NT ( South hand is better then limit raise, IMO)

<snip>

Hi,

 

the main problem is, 3S is a slight underbid, 2NT

a slight overbid, having pushed with 2NT, responder

should hit the brakes, because opener will expect

usually a bit more.

Having bid 3S you can be a bit pushy, ... maybe

opener will never buy, that you have those "Magic Cards".

 

Marlowe

[Gerben42]

If you play "game before slam", then 3♥ after 3♣ does not show extra's, like here. Now opener can show extra's by

 

a) cuebidding

b) bidding 3♠

[han]

I do not believe there is a SANE way to bid 7♥

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy....

Well said Richard.

[Kalvan14]

The use of the 2NT Jacoby (be it the original convention, or some modified treatment) is quite important for everyone who plays 5-card majors, and must be discussed and agreed in detail in any serious partnership. I would submit that it is not an automatic bid, to be used every time responder has both 4 trumps and a game forcing hand.

 

The hand posted for S is a good case in point: responder has a (minimum) GF hand, in consideration of the good fit, and of the richness in controls. However, this hand is much better shown by picture bidding and fast arrival than going through the cumbersome (and space consuming) 2NT.

 

2♥ is not an automatic bid, either: IMHO, however, hiding a significant suit is never a good idea. The proper use of Fast Arrival (where I take Hardy's definition of FA: a limited hand, denying any 1st or 2nd round control in the unbid suits) allows to clarify this hand very well.

 

After an auction 1♠-2♥-3♥ [which normally agrees on hearts as trumps] a JS to 4♠ must indicate a 4-card fit, and a concentration of values in the major suits. There is no reason otherwise for S to bypass a 3♠ [in principle cue-bid], even with a minimum hand [opener has not limited his hand in any way].

 

IMHO, this solves the issue of the length in the heart suit.