Showing fits or giving them?

[Al_U_Card]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=sahkq98daj63cq962]133|100|Scoring: IMP

In 3rd seat, after 2 passes the bidding proceeds

1♦-2♣-dbl*-3♣

*=guarantees at least 1 4-card major

what's your call?[/hv]

[mr1303]

Does the double promise 4 cards in both majors? I'll probably just bid 4H here.

[awm]

I'll go with 3♥. Is this hand worth a 4♥ bid? I think it is very borderline. The club queen is not a useful value. If partner has something like Kxxxx AJxx xxx x, which I think is a fairly clear double, then I'm not sure our chances in 4♥ are all that great. There are not many losers but also not many winners. Combined with the concern that partner may not have four hearts, I think bidding 3♥ is the better call.

 

Certainly our best spot could be 3NT, but partner has the opportunity to bid 3♠ over 3♥ (presumably showing a decent double with four spades and not four hearts) and I can then bid 3NT over that. If we have a 4-4 heart fit and partner has the expected singleton club, then I'd much rather be in 3♥ (or 4♥ if partner has a tad extra) rather than 3NT.

 

Passing with 16 high could be right (passing can almost always be right) but I don't think the odds favor it. There are many hands where partner will not balance and we will suffer a double-partscore swing.

[POJC]

I'll go with 3♥. Is this hand worth a 4♥ bid? I think it is very borderline. The club queen is not a useful value. If partner has something like Kxxxx AJxx xxx x, which I think is a fairly clear double, then I'm not sure our chances in 4♥ are all that great. There are not many losers but also not many winners. Combined with the concern that partner may not have four hearts, I think bidding 3♥ is the better call.

 

Certainly our best spot could be 3NT, but partner has the opportunity to bid 3♠ over 3♥ (presumably showing a decent double with four spades and not four hearts) and I can then bid 3NT over that. If we have a 4-4 heart fit and partner has the expected singleton club, then I'd much rather be in 3♥ (or 4♥ if partner has a tad extra) rather than 3NT.

 

Passing with 16 high could be right (passing can almost always be right) but I don't think the odds favor it. There are many hands where partner will not balance and we will suffer a double-partscore swing.

agree

[mike777]

Double

 

Double always seems to be the winning call in these bidding competitons. I will patiently explain how double shows this exact hand later to partner in the bar. :lol:.

[Kalvan14]

I will go for X too. I trust pard to use his judgment.

[kenberg]

I bid 3H.

 

You say dbl guarantees at least 1 major. I place a heavy bet on him having four spades. However dbl doesn't deny the other major, and if he doesn't have hearts he presumably has a diamond fit. If he bids 4D over my 3H I pass. If he bids 3S over 3H I will be very unhappy. I suppose that shows spade length, too much to sell to 2C, too little to bid a forcing 2S over 2C. I guess I pass 3S. If he raises 3H to 4 I will be very happy but I will still pass. If he passes 3H we will see what happens. I'll be ruffing clubs in the short trump hand if he has only three trump.

 

I'll be interested in how this discussion goes as I have never been particularly happy about the auctions that begin 1D-(2C)-X. If you play it as showing both majors, you wait a long time before you can use it. It seems to me it should be a hand where, on the given auction, you don't mind if partner bids 3H even if you only really fit spades. This could be, for example, a decent hand with a strong 3 card heart holding, short clubs, and four spades. Or four spades and a diamond fit. Something where you can cope with the 3H you have invited partner to bid.

 

If someone has better ideas (likely) I'll be happy to hear them.

 

Ken

[dcvetkov]

I guess I am in the doublers tribe too. It is very doubtful that we have a game, 4h is possible, but more often than not, partner will have about 7-8 points and 4 spades. Double should yield 500 maybe more on a good day

[pclayton]

Pard should have basically 2 places to play for the 2 level double. Hand types include: spades / hearts, spades / diamonds and hearts / diamonds. Normally I would expect a major and a decent club stopper is also a hand type, but the opponents bidding seems to preclude this.

 

Pard could also have the NFB type hand with 5-6 spades and moderate values, but not everyone plays it like this.

 

All in all, I find a hard time seeing how they can make more than 7 tricks if pard dutifully puts a trump on the table.

 

Remember, pard isn't barred, especially since I am sitting under the club bidder.

 

I hope pard doesn't take this as some sort of responsive double.

[Robert]

Hi kenberg

 

Wouldn't 3Ss over 3H show 4Ss and diamond tolerance? Partner shouldn't pass

 

a possible 3NT game holding 4 spades and some diamonds.

 

Without some diamond support and without 4Hs, partner has spades and clubs.

 

He couldn't control the auction after 1D-2C-X so shouldn't he pass unless he

 

has 'extra' values?

 

A 4-1 or even a 5-1 spade fit may not play all that well.

 

Hi Kalvan14

 

Either you play responsive doubles and partner will show his major.(His three

 

spade bid gives you a new additional problem)

 

Or if you do not play responsive doubles, partner will pull your double because

 

he holds short clubs.

 

dcvetkov apparently does play penalty doubles so his double makes some sense.

 

Regards,

Robert

[Kalvan14]

Robert, how can a double not being for penalty in this sequence?

I hope you are not one of those bidders who like to lob always the ball in yr pard's field. If I had interest/desire of bidding a major I would do; what I propose here is clearly a penalty. If pard has a 5-5 in the majors, he'll be certainly intelligent enough to pull.

[mcphee]

I can't bid less than 4H which I expect to have a play for. If not I must have a shot at 5D. This dble should have some values and even a 4-3 H fit should allow me to have a shot at 4H. It seems as though the C o/c could be simply stepping in with a reasonable 6 card C suit and little else. I hate to go back to the other table with less than my 620 for a possible 500.. I expect to have a play to make 4H so I bid it now as partner may pass 3H.

[Double !]

DOUBLE !

 

Dhl

[kenberg]

Robert,

 

Playing the 3S bid as spades, just 4, and promising diamonds as well, makes good sense I am sure. I truly don't kno how it is usually played, if there is a usual way. Based on experience, I have come to expect the long spades and reasonable but not great values. I can't say I have ever had a decent discussion with anyone on this. So thanks.

 

Mc Phee,

 

If I understand correctly, you are saying partner could have as few as two hearts (4-2-5-2 say) in his hand but he will then correct 4H to 5D. With a three card heart holding he will use his judgement. Probably my partner would understand he should act in this way. Possibly even I would understand to act in this way if I were the negative doubler and partner bid 4H.

 

Given this, I amend my call to 4H.

 

My partnerships understandings on this auction are very weak.

[Winstonm]

I agree with Phil on this one - from 2C on up to 3D the double should announce 2 places to compete - in this case either both majors, 1 major and NT, or 1 major and opener's suit. I can rule out NT here, so with both majors or with 1 and diamonds it is safe to bid on: 3H seems enough with the wasted club cards.

 

Winston

[dcvetkov]

Robert, how can a double not being for penalty in this sequence?

I hope you are not one of those bidders who like to lob always the ball in yr pard's field. If I had interest/desire of bidding a major I would do; what I propose here is clearly a penalty. If pard has a 5-5 in the majors, he'll be certainly intelligent enough to pull.

I agree with this. This double should strongly suggest penalty, and while it may help declarer, we can not afford not do double. While 4h and 5D may make, we will need some ideal cards from partner. Dont forget we have two opponents who are bidding vulnerable, so I would not play partner for too much, He may have 5-3-4-1 hand, but 5 D may prove a bit too much, and one hand will be forced with club leads, unless there is a play for crossruff.

 

I would still take some money in the bank by doubling.

[Robert]

Hi Kalvan14

 

It is part on many bidding methods. Called a 'responsive double.' I have played it

 

for several decades now. :)

 

Instead of guessing which 4 card major to bid and 'missing' one half of the time,

 

you make a responsive double and let partner pick a 4-4 fit rather than your

 

making a blind guess and often 'picking' a 4-3 or 4-2 or 4-1 fit. :P

 

You actually do 'not' want to make a clear cut penalty double holding this example

 

hand with a decent partner. He would 'trust' you and pass holding a hand that

 

should bid higher with a 4-4(5-4?) heart fit.

 

"If" I do not know the answer, I always try to 'consult' partner rather than a

 

leaping jump tp use RKC. I rarely use RKC and when I do partner 'trusts' me

 

to 'know' that the RKC is the correct systemic bid.

 

So partner knows to pull your 'clear'(?) penalty double with 5-5 majors. What

 

about 5-4 or 4-4 holdings in the major? What about 4M and diamond support?

 

Great 'trust' your partner auction. You double for penalty 'in front of parnter' and

 

he pulls your penalty double. That is 'known' as a cooperative double, 'not' a

 

penalty double. :)

 

Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given unto thee.

 

Happy holidays and best wishes, :)

 

Robert

[Al_U_Card]

Here's the problem, lack of "real" values but lots of potential playing strength. What is better, A ♣ q-bid or a negative double or a straight ♦ raise? Since they are bidding, pard will know about the club shortness, but not about the diamond length. Pard PASSED in the sequence given (?) and when the diamond fit was announced (guess I could have bid 5), passed again.....making 6.[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sjxxhjxxxdkqtxxxc]133|100|Scoring: IMP

Didn't open 2D, and wanted to look for the major fit.

1♦-2♣-dbl-3♣

p - p - 3♦ - p

p - p

[/hv]

[whereagles]

In this case you can either double or bid 3♥. I would go with double because 3♥ is passable and I would like to try a game. I'd raise pard's 3♥ to 4, or bid 3NT after 3♠.

[mike777]

Here's the problem, lack of "real" values but lots of potential playing strength. What is better, A ♣ q-bid or a negative double or a straight ♦ raise? Since they are bidding, pard will know about the club shortness, but not about the diamond length. Pard PASSED in the sequence given (?) and when the diamond fit was announced (guess I could have bid 5), passed again.....making 6.[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sjxxhjxxxdkqtxxxc]133|100|Scoring: IMP

Didn't open 2D, and wanted to look for the major fit.

1♦-2♣-dbl-3♣

p - p - 3♦ - p

p - p

[/hv]

Prefer 3clubs not neg x.

 

If partner can make a freebid of 3h, great, otherwise I am playing in D.

[Al_U_Card]

Prefer 3clubs not neg x.

 

If partner can make a freebid of 3h, great, otherwise I am playing in D.

Expected a 3♣ q-bid to be followed by 4+♣ and even with the D fit, the H suit might be lost forever.....

[Kalvan14]

Robert,

I would really prefer if your posts were not always slanted with an ad-personam bias. What has RKC to do with this hand?

 

It has been quite evident for a long time that you and I play 2 very different philosophies of bridge (and if we were to be partnered together it would be a disaster). It happens, and not just in bridge.

 

I can just repeat my statement: it is a penalty double, and I am 100% sure that my partner would pull it with the posted hand. Probably you would not [to show confidence in partner's decisions, obviously]

[civill]

I don't think that the dbl is suitable here.

[Robert]

Hi Kalvan14

 

What bias? Everyone posting wrong information about Max Hardy's methods would draw a correction from me. You posted misinformation and I posted two quotes from his book to 'correct' the wrong information that you had posted.

 

That is a fact. :)

 

You addressed a question to me by my 'name' and I responded with the answer

that I had played responsive doubles for several decades. :)

 

That is another fact. :)

 

I did offer my opinion that your leaping to bid RKC on many hands was premature.

If your numerous posts containing a jump to 4NT does not suggest that idea...

 

We would never become a partnership unless I had a loaded gun pointed at my head. I would likely still think seriously about my options even then... ;)

 

You confuse your opinion with fact. You may play whatever methods you decide.

I have played responsive doubles in this type auction for several decades. :)

 

You may repeat your 'opinion', but that still does not make it a fact. Some play responsive doubles and your opinion would not cause me to stop playing one of

my chosen methods. :)

 

I encourage your choice of any meaning for your bids. Why wouldn't you allow me the same choice?

 

Trust partner is listed on my CC. I have been lucky to have a number of talented

partners over the decades, why wouldn't I trust a talented partner to bid properly?

 

Straw man arguments just weaken your case. :(

 

I have nothing against you. Why you would think so is a mystery to me.

 

A number of your bridge ideas I do not agree with and I post my different opinion.

Gentlemen and gentlewomen may agree to disagree.

 

dcvetkov uses a perfectly good method of playing penalty doubles here. I do not.

We do not have any problem. Why should you have a problem with my 'opinion?'

 

civill posted, "I don't think that the dbl is suitlable here." I have no problem with a different opinion.

 

Do you consider a different opinion as a personal attack on Kalvan14? Why would you?

 

Best regards,

Robert

[temp3600]

Hello Robert,

 

I enjoy the bridge content of your posts, but I too find that the abundance of smileys and single-quoted words give them a strong pretentious and condescending tone.

 

Michael