perfect for serious3nt

[jillybean]

Hi,

This is a hand I played with Richard I am south.

I don't play serious 3nt, and maybe I should. Could I have just been more aggressive and bid 6♠ ?

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=s9754ht865da6cak6&s=sakqt83hqdk953ct9]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♣    Pass  2♠

 Pass  3♠    Pass  4♦

 Pass  4♠    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

[han]

I would not recommend serious 3NT. I still think that you should have better agreements about your strong jumpshifts. I think that this hand is easier to bid without a strong jumpsft.

[Guest Jlall]

can't get to all your 25 HCP slams that require a doubleton diamond in your hand. Anyways, yes I think you should have been more agressive but only because I would expect much more for a strong jump shift.

[inquiry]

Confused.. 2♠ was strong I take it, already game force, and 3♠ implied support and some extra stuff. 4♦ seemed perfect, and your partner, at least imho is duty bound to bid 4♥ here as last train, showing a club control, and saying nothing at all about clubs.

 

[hv=s=sxxxxhakxdaxcqjtx]133|100|Over 4♠ you have little choice but pass, partenr could easily be[/hv]

 

Now if you are not playing LAST TRAIN, this is a trickier situation. (BTW, since you have a minimum 2♠ strong jump shift, even if playing serious 3NT I like the 4♦ cue-bid. )

 

A better start to the auction, I think is...

 

1C - 2S

3D - 3h

4C - 4D

 

Here, playing jumpshifts as either two suited with opener suit and bid suit, or one suited and my one suiter will be trumps. In this case, 3D agrees spades as trumps, and is cue-bid. Could also bid 3C if that would be understood as cue bid (with 2NT waiting to discover responders hand type...)

 

1C - 2S

3C - 3D

4C - 4NT

Slam bid

 

where 3C = cue, 3D = cue, 4C = cue (AK) and denies a heart control.

 

There are so many ways to get there....

[han]

can't get to all your 25 HCP slams that require a doubleton diamond in your hand. Anyways, yes I think you should have been more agressive but only because I would expect much more for a strong jump shift.

She was south.

[Guest Jlall]

can't get to all your 25 HCP slams that require a doubleton diamond in your hand. Anyways, yes I think you should have been more agressive but only because I would expect much more for a strong jump shift.

She was south.

Oh....THAT south...

[plaur]

I dont like the strong jump shift by South. I dont think the hand is strong enough. North should cuebid ♣ control with 4♥.

If south now has enough to go 4NT uhh... not sure. You have control in all suits but do you have the tricks? If you dont go for 4NT (over 4♥) partner cant move since he dont know about the ♥ control.

[hrothgar]

Quick note:

 

Jilly's comment that we weren't playing Serious 3NT is a decent clue that we weren't playing Last Train...

[jillybean]

Uggh, my fault. I’m not playing this as SJS, I am thinking 2♠ is showing 5+♠ 10+points.

 

I find these rebids very awkward when I can’t reverse to show extra values but I want to create gf ......and finding old habits hard to shake.

 

jb

[luke warm]

Quick note:

 

Jilly's comment that we weren't playing Serious 3NT is a decent clue that we weren't playing Last Train...

heheh

 

i disagree with han's assessment of serious 3nt, and i agree with ben that even had you been playing it here, 4♦ was the bid.. i don't see any sure way to reach slam

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

You cannot bid every makeable slam. Let the borderline slams go.

 

This hand makes because of the near miracle fits.

 

AKQ10xx x Kxx xxx and there are two losers.

 

AKQ10xx x Kx xxxx and there are two losers.

 

Do any of the proposed slam auctions stop short of slam with these holdings?

 

Did the 1C bid promise 3+ clubs or 2+ clubs?

 

If 2+ clubs were allowed because of a 4+ D opening

 

xxxx xxxx Axx AK Same shape and same honors and still two losers.

 

Regards,

Robert

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=s9754ht865da6cak6&s=sakqt83hqdk953ct9]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Only 3 of the pairs did bid 6:

 

1♣:1♠

2♠:4nt etc

 

and one..

 

P :1♠

2♣:3♠

6♠

 

everyone else played 4♠ after an initial pass by North.

[han]

I disagree with han's assessment of serious 3nt.

I like serious 3NT (I like it very much in fact) but I think that it is more important to get all the basics clear first. Shaking off the old habit of bidding 2S with 5+ spades and a GF (yuck!) is a good start.

 

(I'm starting to sound like a Danish poster with a pipe, perhaps he is right after all)

[Double !]

Hi all

 

Just curious: Do others play 1C- 1S - 2S - 4H as splinter? if so, wouldn't this be a nice hand for it.

 

DHL

[Guest Jlall]

I disagree with han's assessment of serious 3nt.

I like serious 3NT (I like it very much in fact) but I think that it is more important to get all the basics clear first.

I agree, I still do not play it.

[Robert]

Hi jillybean2

 

4th suit 'forcing' is the normal convention used to create GF auctions 'without'

having to reverse or jump.

 

I do play serious 3NT and Last Train. Neither is needed for learning bridge.

The classic methods of bridge bidding(with minor tweaks) will serve quite well.

 

If conventions are later desired, they can be added 'after' prior agreement.

 

Hi Double !

 

A very good bid. That 4H jump is called a 'self splinter.'

 

That was the first example that 'popped' into my head for this auction.

1C-1S-2S-4H*

if this auction does not get you to slam, you are very unlikely to get there or the slam chances will normally be poor at best.

 

You do not want to use a 'self splinter' with a partner 'unless' a prior agreement has already been made.

 

Best wishes,

Robert

[Finch]

I disagree with han's assessment of serious 3nt.

I like serious 3NT (I like it very much in fact) but I think that it is more important to get all the basics clear first.

I agree, I still do not play it.

Neither do I.

[Finch]

I'm not entirely clear about the 2S response. It seems it wasn't a strong jump shift (which is lucky for Richard, because if it was a strong jump shift I was about to very rude about North's bidding).

 

I wouldn't worry too much about missing this one: it's a miracle fit. I can see only three ways of bidding it:

i) Guess (as in the auction 1S - 2C - 3S - 6S) - North had no idea if there were going to be 12 tricks or not

ii) Make a (very light) strong jump shift on the South cards, after which North is close to a slam force once a heart control comes to light

iii) Play some other bits of system that would happen to work well on this hand (such as 1C - 1S - 2S - 4H has a splinter as already suggested).

[jillybean]

Thanks, back to basics again.

I wish this thread would just go away. :)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi all

 

Just curious: Do others play 1C- 1S - 2S - 4H as splinter? if so, wouldn't this be a nice hand for it.

 

DHL

Probably, but opener having opened this

cool 11count with 4-3-3-3 shape will hit the

brakes and bid 4S.

 

Of course he has lots of controls, but he has

a subminimum opening, to describe it nice.

 

Marlowe

[pclayton]

I think its possible after: 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♠ - 4♥ (splinter). With North's primes maybe a positive move could be made.

 

But its a pretty tough slam to reach. Don't lose too much sleep over this one.

[hrothgar]

I'm not entirely clear about the 2S response. It seems it wasn't a strong jump shift (which is lucky for Richard, because if it was a strong jump shift I was about to very rude about North's bidding).

Rude comments regarding my bidding are probably entirely appropriate... (More importantly, I have a pretty thick hide)

 

Regardless of whether or not Katherine had ab appropriate hand for a SJS, she had it marked on her profile and I was operating under the assumption that we were playing SJS. With this said and done, I we had no agreements regarding serious 3NT or Last Train and I assumed that these were off...

 

From my perspective, I felt a bit trapped by the 4♦ bid. I was sitting on the AK of Clubs, so I knew that Jilly was denying a Club control. With this said and done, I didn't have any kind of Heart control...

 

My big question is what would a 5♦ bid say about Hearts and/or CLubs...

[han]

Very good Justin, keep working on those basics. Pm me if you would like some book recommendations. :P

[mikeh]

Thanks, back to basics again.

I wish this thread would just go away.  ;)

Sorry, jb: I happen to think that this is a great thread. We tend to get a little overboard in this forum with special treatments and weird methods, so getting back to basics is precisely what this section should be about.

 

In North American 'standard' methods, there are two main uses for the immediate jump shift response by an unpassed hand without competition. Please note that there are minority views in such sequences as 1♣ 2♦ and so on, but I am dealing here with mainstream methods.

 

One is to play the jumpshift as a weak jump shift: the point range varies... some play very weak, some play 3-6 or 4-7 etc, always with a 6 or 7 card suit.

 

More common, at least traditionally, was the power-house jump shift. There was a time that it merely promised game values but it has long been more popular, in NA, to play it as substantially more: at least mild slam interest.

 

More recently still (maybe the last 25 years or so) it has become common amongst more advanced players to use the strong version with one of two hand types: a single-suiter with a very good (6+) suit and some side cards or a two-suiter: at least 5 cards in the bid suit and excellent support for opener's suit. In such a method, the partnership can play in only responder's suit or notrump (with the first variety) or either of opener's and responder's suits or notrump (with the second variety).

 

This treatment became playable because the bridge community (again, I am speaking of NA here since I have limited experience elsewhere) generally adopted other ways of showing lesser but still game force hands, such as the one you held.

 

After a 2♠ raise, as would have occurred here, your hand is borderline but does contain modest slam hopes. (BTW, having Jump shifted, you have NO 'blame' for failing to reach the magic slam, and if your partner knew that your jumpshift could be weakish (as it was) then neither does he).

 

1♣ 1♠ 2♠

 

4♥ as a splinter is probably the only conceivable way to reach slam, since north now knows that everything he has is working overtime. But even so, he opened a hand that quite a few would pass and his ♠ suit is not great. So I would not blame either side for missing slam.

 

On your auction, you should absolutely NOT even think about driving towards slam yourself, whether by blasting or using that horribly over-used device known as 4N.

 

Such mehtods involved a non-jump response of 1♠ (on your hand).

 

If partner bid a new suit, then 4th suit forcing was available.

Note, however, that a new suit here would require a reverse, and that adds a layer of complexity to the discussion that I will now ignore.

 

If partner rebids 1N, then you could logically jump to 4♠, because your hand is not strong enough to go slamming opposite a 1N rebid.

 

If partner rebids 2♣, then most advanced players (I mean truly advanced) would use 2♦ as an artificial force, but if that were not available, you would have to use 3♠ as forcing: this is unpopular, since then you have real trouble with a similar but slightly weaker (invitational) hand. This dilemma is why the artificial 2♦ 'stall' is used after 1♣ 1Major 2♣

 

If your hand were stronger and/if you held a 5 card ♠ suit, then after a 1N rebid by partner, you would use some form of new minor forcing. I strongly recommend that you (and your partner(s)) study the so-called two way nmf. I did a post on my comprehensive methods some time ago, but many good players play a variant of the method. Old fashione d new minor is still commonly used by most tournament players in your part of the world, but it is markedly inferior to 2-way, and you will impress the heck out of your friends (at least, the smart ones) if you adopt the 2 way treatment :lol: