Rules after passing an overcall

[luis]

I decided this was a good topic after a hand posted in the interesting hands forum.

 

RHO You LHO Pd

1h 2d p p

2h ?

 

Your pd settled for 2d and opener re-opens, now :

a) If you bid again does it show extra values or just competitive?

B) What is 2N? Dbl? 3d? 2s? The meaning of dbl is specially interesting to me...

c) If you do bid something different than pass what do you expect from pd:

c1) To pass or correct we are just competing

c2) To try for game if he has maximum for his pass

c3) Something else

[keylime]

Interesting question....my thoughts:

 

1) Bidding again here I think is simply competing, showing marked shortness in the opener's suit. By inference, partner has to have SOMETHING. Failing to double here or bid some form of NT pegs the overcaller's hand into a restricted set of circumstances. If you had great values you'd double TWICE to get partner to correct/bid here.

 

2) Bidding 2S here doesn't make a lot of sense UNLESS you have one of those in-between hands that couldn't Michaels because the hand is not too weak or not too strong. Any thoughts on that?

 

2A) 2NT? That to me sounds like takeout, probably showing a 1-3-6-3 hand asking partner to pick a spot to play, and denies a good 6 carder.

 

2B) 3D - simply competing, denying extra values, definitely showing a hand that can not tolerate defense (thinking a void in the opener's suit, maybe a 5-4/6-4 hand without spades).

 

3) I expect partner from his/her pass to indicate something, but not enough to make a cuebid/forward going bid. I think since advancer passed, they have inferred the inability to make a positive move. I would think that a double after the repeat bid is asking partner for help, possible convertible. I definitely would NOT expect partner to table more than 10 points here....otherwise I'm owed a bid.

 

I may be way off, but that's the agreements I have in KLP.

[inquiry]

I would play Good Bad 2NT here by overcaller, so this helps clarify just competing hands from good hands you might hold....

 

So:

 

(1H)-1D-(P)-P; (2H)-3D is good (some reverse this)

 

(1H)-1D-(P)-P; (2H)-2NT is bad (I expect partner will bid 3D instead of 3C with a couple of diamonds and relatively short clubs in case I planned to give a choice between 3C and 3D with "bad".

 

So..

1) can you bid again just "competiting". Answer is clearly yes.

2a) what is 2NT: Good/Bad

2b) what is dbl (Takeout, and, especially vul versus nonvul Good hand, extras)

2c) What is 3D? Good hand (exellent Competitive, not 3d first, not 2NT)

2d) What is 2S? I would play 3 good spades or longer, not forcing. With 4 spades and long diamonds, with most partners I go ahead and double 1H (or use raptor 1NT) and then if partner bids clubs, I use the rule that if I change suits without raising the level, I promise nothing extra. And, if I didn't use this rule, then with 4 spades and a good hand, I would double 2H to show this hand.

 

If I bid 3D, I expect partner to reconsider the possibility of game despite his first pass.

 

If I bid 2NT, I expect partenr to bid 3C with shortish diamonds and longer clubs, otherwise, I expect him to bid 3D

 

If I bid 2S, I generally expect partner to pass or take me back to diamonds

 

If I double, I expect partner to do something intellegent with his hand. Maybe jump to 4S, maybe try for game in clubs, maybe try for game in NT, maybe cue-bid to get more information from me.

 

So with GB/2NT the only point of contention perhaps, as hinted by your question ("if you bid again does it show extra values") is the double. One could draw up a hand where you are short in hearts, long in diamnods, and williness to compete in either black suit. Imagine, for instance 3-1-6-3, with a very nice Diamond suit, and black suits. If you feel the need to double now just to compete maybe you should have doubled initially. I think the dbl here shows something like this and a good hand.

 

Why? A good rule of thumb, is to remember if YOU pass 2H, partner has another bid. If he is sitting on five spades, for instance, he might balance with 2S over 2H without any action from you. He knows you can retreat perhaps to 3C or 3D over 2S with no fit. If he has honor doubleton or 3 diamonds, he might well raise now to 3D. If he has clubs and a tolerance for diamonds, he might now show his clubs. And he might make a takeout double on his own (if he is short in hearts) in case you have hearts and diamonds.

 

BTW, if you played raptor both the 2S rebid and the dble on this auction are a little clearer showing long diamonds and 3 spades. Another reason to play raptor 1NT... after 2D overcall you DO NOT have four cards in the other major.

 

Ben

[keylime]

Ben,

 

I completely forgot G/B 2NT in my analysis (realize folks I was pleasantly distracted when I wrote the post). That's a very underrated treatment that will greatly aid matters in competitive bidding. I don't have a link readily at my disposal to refer readers to, but it's definitlely worthwhile.

[inquiry]

Ben,

 

I completely forgot G/B 2NT in my analysis

 

Np.. I agree that good bad 2NT is a nice treatment. However, please allow me to point out another error in your initial post. You said "Bidding again here I think is simply competing, showing marked shortness in the opener's suit. By inference, partner has to have SOMETHING.".

 

Sadly, this is not always true. Sometimes, RHO has a fair number of diamonds and good values. In this case, he can make a pass over partners 2D FULLY expecting his partner to reopen (hopefully for him with a double). That is, if you ASSUME your partner must have something, you will be sorely disappointed sometimes, and if you BID AGAIN on those hands (when RHO did trap pass), you will be REALLY sorry. This is why without a good reason for bidding again, I think you should pass. If your Partner Does Have Something, he can bid again.

 

Ben